Cal: 308 Winchester
Rifle: FN SCAR 17S
Sizing die: Redding Type S full length w/ TiN bushing
Seating die: Wilson stainless micrometer die & arbor press

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I picked up a Redding Full Length Type S sizing die to try out for my brass belching FN SCAR.

At first, I was using a set of small base dies, but I now think that it is unnecessary and that I was overworking my brass. So I had a set of Hornady 308 Win dies lying around that I have been using without issue for the last 100 rounds or so as I break in the barrel and rifle.

But, given my anal retentiveness and generally perfectionist approach to handloading, I wanted even more control over the sizing process. Hence, the Redding Type S die and titanium nitride bushing (based on case neck diameter of previously loaded ammo).

I planned to only use the standard expander only when the case necks are new or out of round. So far the rifle seems to spit out the cases without any damage to the case mouths so I think I can get by without an expander most of the time (I use a brass catcher 90% of the time).

The Type S die came with a standard expander and also with an undersized cap that retains the decapping pin without actually touching the inside of the case mouth.

Question: I am wondering if anyone has any experience with using the optional carbide expander ball in the Type S die. I am looking of real world first-hand experience and opinions.

I know that expanders can, in general, cause a lot of trouble with pulled necks and concentricity issues. So that's why I'm asking if the carbide ball offers any REAL advantages.

Here are some pictures:

Standard expander



Carbide Expander ball

If your bushing is the correct diameter it will size the case necks about .001 to .002 smaller than the bullet. If you use any expander about all it has to do is round out the neck when the neck is out of round due to case neck wall variations.
If your brass is uniform or if you turn it uniform the bushing will do all the work and the button doesn't have to do anything. It can be left out entirely.

What you are asking is "What difference does the carbide button make".
The answer is
When expanding .001 or less it does little or nothing that the steel button can do.

If you want to be anal about controlling your brass dimensions you might be better off thinking about the diameter of the chamber neck in your rifle. It should be as small as possible to minimize the amount of expansion and sizing required.

When the case neck is expanded way oversize the bushing has to size the case a lot.

Redding bushings are notorious for not having much of a lead in inside corner radius. This can cause the neck to be sized off center, if the chamber is large and the bushing has to size a lot. This is not a bushing problem, it is a chamber problem.

You should use a bushing with an edge radius about twice that of the case neck thickness.

Wilson bushings have a larger edge radius. The Reddings can be polished to a larger radius thought the titanium nitride bushing might take a while to polish through the coating unless you use diamond paste.

You might read how benchresters size their chambers.

They use a small neck 9tight neck) chamber.
They turn the case neck to be about .0001 to .0005 (note tenths of a thousandth)

They may or may not have to size the neck before they seat a bullet.

Since you are using a gas gun some of the clearances have to be "sloppy" to permit it to function.

That's interesting. May I jump aboard?

I have the standard Redding FL Die in 270 WCF. With its standard steel expander ball. I get an awful chatter and grunching sound when I use this.

I am thinking of getting the carbide ball. Will this, as Redding claim, stop this chattering and grunching sound?

And will they size easier as a result? Or not?

Do you lube your case necks?
I never get any chattering if I lube the case necks.
If you do not lube your case necks you will eventually have brass gall and cold weld itself to the expander. Then the galled metal will score the inside of the case necks.

The carbide expander does work smoother but even they can be galled if you insist on no lube and us cases with combustion carbon left inside. When used with a bushing they work even better because there is little to no expanding.
For the most part they are not needed with a bushing die.


If you ignore lubing the inside of the case neck you would be better off with a full lenght bushing die. When you have the bushing sized correctly there is little to no expanding required, so you can probably forget the expander. However you will still need to lube the outside of the case and that includes a little on the outside of the neck.

I think the carbide expander has the most application for someone using a Dillon or equivalent loader and wants to ignore lubing inside the case neck as much as possible.

Another good use for the carbide expander is reloading nickel rifle brass. The inside of the necks are very rough and the super hard carbide can burnish or iron out some of the roughness.

quote:

Originally posted by enfieldspares:
That's interesting. May I jump aboard?

I have the standard Redding FL Die in 270 WCF. With its standard steel expander ball. I get an awful chatter and grunching sound when I use this.

I am thinking of getting the carbide ball. Will this, as Redding claim, stop this chattering and grunching sound?

And will they size easier as a result? Or not?

I decap with a dedicated decapping die and don't run with an expander in my S Type dies. I use the bushing to set the neck size for my chambers.

Thank you everyone for the quick responses. Being a brass belching gas operated battle rifle, I am probably… No scratch that… Definitely… Going overboard. I adjust dies for my target rifles using the chamber dimensions as you noted above. By its nature, I think this will be different animal though. I want consistency without sacrificing reliability.

A good point was brought up regarding the decapping. I use a separate decapping die as well before tossing the brass into the wet stainless steel pin tumbling media. (I like clean, shiny, dirt, and carbon free brass to start with). So I guess I could completely leave out the decapping stem and just use the die with the bushing only.

Another good point about the difference between Wilson and Redding bushings. I have both and now see the difference. I have noticed though, that the Wilson bushings do not size as far down on the case neck as the Redding bushings do. There is a minute step effect. Because of this, as a sidenote, I sent my 300 WSM and 223 Remington dies back to Wilson to have them adjusted so that more of the neck will be sized. But I like that little step to some degree because it helps center the round into the bore when chambered.

Thanks again to everyone for their replies. I appreciate the information.

Thanks SR4759. I never used to lube inside my case necks that is true. For 303 British or 8x60S or 280 Remington. And all these on RCBS FL dies.

I also didn't seem to have a problem with 270 WCF on my RCBS dies but only with Redding dies with the standard steel expander.

I've do now lube (Redding's graphite lube mixed with some lead shot) inside the case necks and that seems to have eliminated the problem in as much as I have not yet tried it with the Redding dies.

But I guess the problem is my own making trying to save time and money by not inside lubing. Although I never had the problem with RCBS FL dies in 270 WCF.

The functional diameter of the Redding steel expander is longer than the same item on RCBS dies. There is probably more drag and chatter due to the long Redding expander.

quote:

Originally posted by enfieldspares:
Thanks SR4759. I never used to lube inside my case necks that is true. For 303 British or 8x60S or 280 Remington. And all these on RCBS FL dies.

I also didn't seem to have a problem with 270 WCF on my RCBS dies but only with Redding dies with the standard steel expander.

I've do now lube (Redding's graphite lube mixed with some lead shot) inside the case necks and that seems to have eliminated the problem in as much as I have not yet tried it with the Redding dies.

But I guess the problem is my own making trying to save time and money by not inside lubing. Although I never had the problem with RCBS FL dies in 270 WCF.

Thank you.

I use the S match dies for loading for my AR .223 and they work just fine. The only time I use the carbide expander ball is when working over once fired brass (not from my rifle) whose necks are dinged up. Once I have fired the cases in my AR I use the bushing die with out doing any expanding. I think I have converted most of my standard dies to use the carbide ball rather than the supplied steel one.
C.G.B.

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:
Do you lube your case necks?
I never get any chattering if I lube the case necks.
If you do not lube your case necks you will eventually have brass gall and cold weld itself to the expander. Then the galled metal will score the inside of the case necks.

The carbide expander does work smoother but even they can be galled if you insist on no lube and us cases with combustion carbon left inside. When used with a bushing they work even better because there is little to no expanding.
For the most part they are not needed with a bushing die.


If you ignore lubing the inside of the case neck you would be better off with a full lenght bushing die. When you have the bushing sized correctly there is little to no expanding required, so you can probably forget the expander. However you will still need to lube the outside of the case and that includes a little on the outside of the neck.

I think the carbide expander has the most application for someone using a Dillon or equivalent loader and wants to ignore lubing inside the case neck as much as possible.

Another good use for the carbide expander is reloading nickel rifle brass. The inside of the necks are very rough and the super hard carbide can burnish or iron out some of the roughness.

quote:

Originally posted by enfieldspares:
That's interesting. May I jump aboard?

I have the standard Redding FL Die in 270 WCF. With its standard steel expander ball. I get an awful chatter and grunching sound when I use this.

I am thinking of getting the carbide ball. Will this, as Redding claim, stop this chattering and grunching sound?

And will they size easier as a result? Or not?

Just wondering what lube you use?

For the case body: Either some old Lyman in the tube, or RCBS #2 in the small bottle or Imperial wax lube.

For the case necks...if I bother...I use the graphite type stuff sold through Redding that I have in a container mixed with lead #7 bird shot.

I mostly use Imperial for lubing cases on the outside surfaces.

However for inside the case neck lubing one of the heavy oils like Hornady lube works well on a nylon brush or cotton swab.

quote:

Originally posted by IanD:

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:
Do you lube your case necks?
I never get any chattering if I lube the case necks.
If you do not lube your case necks you will eventually have brass gall and cold weld itself to the expander. Then the galled metal will score the inside of the case necks.

The carbide expander does work smoother but even they can be galled if you insist on no lube and us cases with combustion carbon left inside. When used with a bushing they work even better because there is little to no expanding.
For the most part they are not needed with a bushing die.


If you ignore lubing the inside of the case neck you would be better off with a full lenght bushing die. When you have the bushing sized correctly there is little to no expanding required, so you can probably forget the expander. However you will still need to lube the outside of the case and that includes a little on the outside of the neck.

I think the carbide expander has the most application for someone using a Dillon or equivalent loader and wants to ignore lubing inside the case neck as much as possible.

Another good use for the carbide expander is reloading nickel rifle brass. The inside of the necks are very rough and the super hard carbide can burnish or iron out some of the roughness.

quote:

Originally posted by enfieldspares:
That's interesting. May I jump aboard?

I have the standard Redding FL Die in 270 WCF. With its standard steel expander ball. I get an awful chatter and grunching sound when I use this.

I am thinking of getting the carbide ball. Will this, as Redding claim, stop this chattering and grunching sound?

And will they size easier as a result? Or not?

Just wondering what lube you use?

I decap on a separate old RCBS press with a permanently mounted decap die. I use a Coax to reload.

Years ago I replaced all my std expanders with carbides in all my Redding dies, nearly all of which I neck (S type) only.

I don't use any expanders on boat tail bullets. I only use the carbides on flat based bullets- my 340 Wby and Rigby.

I stopped after reading Howell's book. IIRC he sized cases first without expanders and then used a separate step to only expand the case mouth to help accept the bullet, which is not necessary on BTs.

quote:

I stopped after reading Howell's book. IIRC he sized cases first without expanders and then used a separate step to only expand the case mouth to help accept the bullet, which is not necessary on BTs.

There's an American memeber of the UK Stalking Directory Forum, called MUIR, that does that too. He recommends using one of the old type Lyman M Expander dies.