I usually like to use them as they meter so beautifully and I use H-414 in the .22-250 as well as varmint loads in the .243 and .257 Roberts.

I'm also finding that it's a very excellent performer in the .30-06 and who knows where else I'm going to find it works so very well.

Here's the wrinkle.....I'm haunted with the (rumors) that it's temperature sensitive.....and I'm not at all worried about hot weather....it's the cold weather I'm concerned about.

I've had a practice of loading ball powders (H-414 specifically) with magnum primers even in the .243 and .257 Roberts but is there any real data to confirm that this is a "poor" cold weather powder?

I'm not looking for more internet opinion....I'm looking for hard data...something traceable to tests or even a manufacturers claims.

Anyone able to dispell or lend credibility to the ball powder and cold weather issue will be very welcome on this thread.

I've noticed no grossly adverse effects of using ball powders in temperatures ranging from 35 below (F) to 125 above (F).

But part of my usual hunting routine is to arrive early and verify zeroing...

This probably won't be a hell of a lot of help as it just doesn't seem to get that cold where I hunt. I use ball powders almost exclusively as I like the way they meter.
It's awfully hot here in Arizona and I usually do my load workups in the summer and temperatures have ranged from as high as 115 degrees to a bit over 100 degrees as the average. One of my pet loads for a stubborn Ruger 77 RSI in .308 Win.is 49.0 gr. of W-760 with the 165 gr. Speer hot-core. Velocity isn't all that great but it is the only decent load I've found for that rifle. I'd estimate that the intial loading was done at a temperature range of about 100 to 105 degrees. Later that year, while on a deer hunt, I shot a deer at 250 yards and based on where the bullet struck, I'd have to guess that there wasn't much temperature effect on the load. I'd estimate the temperature was around 38-40 degrees.Brass was Winchester and Winchester standard WLR primers. Velocity was never all that great at 2550 FPS from the 18.5" barrel and the same load does 2610 FPS from a 2" barrel. I'd try a bit more powder to speed things up, but the rifle doesn't like that idea. I've given thought to sticking about ten rounds in the freezer for about a week and the other ten rounds kept in the box and running the two over the chronograph. I'd pack the frozen ammo in a plastic bag and cover it with ice in a small ice chest to keep it cold on ther way to the range and shoot. That might give you a working idea of what to expect.
Paul B.

quote:

I've given thought to sticking about ten rounds in the freezer for about a week and the other ten rounds kept in the box and running the two over the chronograph.

Thank you.....now there's a simple but great idea.

I spent some time at the USMC cold weather training center in the High Sierra during the dead of winter, (when else). Some of us disassembled live rounds and used the powder as a fire starter (worked pretty good, too!). I do remember it being a ball type in both the 308 and 223 ammo we used.

Ball powder is a very mature powder technology. The stuff was developed in WWII if my memory is correct. The military used to test its Ball powder ammunition in environmental chambers at -40C to 120 F for function and pressure testing. Considering that aircraft are exposed to -70 F temperatures at 30,000 feet or so, and I doubt the ammunition is kept warm by heaters, it is reasonable to assume that ball powder will function in temperatures below your design limits.

Be aware the Mil Spec primer is a magnum primer. Because the military wants a big flame at low temperature to set the powder off.

You should be more worried that your firing pin, firing pin spring, etc, are free of all oils and greases. More misfires occur in extreme weather due to congealed lubricants.

Extreme cold weather is a harsher environment than hot weather. Even though military equipment is typically designed to operate in -40 F weather, what you find is that people are more interested in surviving at that temperature than fighting.

vapodog you must realize that you live in northern Wisconsin now. Just wait until Jan. Feb. and you should have at least a few -30 or colder days to play with.

I use H414 in many hunting loads, I always use CCI-250 magnum primers, and never have any cold weather problems.

Hogdon's new one is supposed to be virtually immune to variations caused by temp extremes:

http://loaddata.com/articles/PDF/New%20Powder%20From%20Hodgdon.pdf

I've had grat success with Ball, specifically, H-414 in my 375 H&H and my 30.06. Very consistent, accurate loads from the cold of Maine to the 100 plus degree of Zim. jorge

A Hodgdon rep told me once that Mag primers were recommended for all of their ball powders, a point not always supported by their load data. Ball burns cooler than stick, I'd expect it to lose a little oomph in cold conditions. They may have ball powders available that are insensitive to temp., I dunno. I like ball too for times when I load a lot of ammo, but prefer stick propellants for performance...always seem to do a little better in my guns.

Back in the late 90's a very knowledgeable fellow by the name of Stan Watson did alot of pressure testing with the 30-06. He published a book called "a handloaders odessy". He ran all sorts of tests with different primers, bullets, powders, case brands, seating depths....you name it he covered it in his book and I recomend anyone who loves this sport buy it.

Anyhow in his book he did temp tests on powders. He got them both hot and cold by putting in freezer bags...he'd put them into a 0 degree freezer and also into hot water so he could test from 0-110 degrees. H4831 was true to the "temp extreme" reputation by varying no more than about 20 fps in those ranges. BUT other powders did pretty well too. Win 760 only varied by about 60fps from hottest to coldest. I4350 did about the same (60 fps) with standard primers but was extremely consistant with mag primers. VV N-560 varied by about 50 fps. One last interesting note he made about 760 powder was that it actually made slightly more (and I mean slightly) by using standard primers instead of magnum primers.

It just isn't ball powders that are sensative to temps, as Reloader 21 and 22 are reported to be very bad in this respect.
Ramshot powders, which are spherical, have the reputation of being temp insensative plus being extremely clean burning from those who use them. As a heads-up, Graf & Sons have them on sale for $79.99 per 8 lbs. HTH

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
vapodog you must realize that you live in northern Wisconsin now. Just wait until Jan. Feb. and you should have at least a few -30 or colder days to play with.

yea...right...really looking foreward to it.

Hey guys what part of Wisconsin do you really live in....We haven't had a good old fashion winter here for years!!!

It's funny that you asked the question, I was just looking over an old ST issue from November 2002, the one with the tribute to Bill Ruger. it just so happens that this issue also has an article titled "How cold temperature affects handloads" by Rick Jamison. There were dramatic differences between the cold and hot velocities. See if you can track down a copy of the article. Something to keep in mid is that some powders will handle temperatures better than others which is the whole reason for Hodgdon's "extreme" powders. I have checked many of my own handloads at the different end of the temperature spectrums and even though the velocities varied, sometimes by alot, I never noticed and real POI shift. Hope this helps.