I know a couple of you guys load pass Max watching out for high pressure signs.
I never thought I would have a need to but here go’s.

I’m loading 35 Whelen and 7mm08 using Reloader 15 for both. Let’s address the 35 Whelen later.

I have not achieved accurate re-loads yet, but am closing the gap as I add powder in .5 grain increments. All cases are cleaned trimmed and gauged.

The 7mm08 is using Seirra 140 grain spitzer #1905 Bullet - I retrieved data from Sierra Manual for this load and 41.2 is listed as Max grains.

I started at 37.5 to 41.0 grains of Rx15. I’m showing no high pressure signs, [Sticking bolt] [flat primers] but groups are not what I expected.
I just loaded 6 more rounds / 3 rounds with 41.5 grains and 3 rounds with 42.0 grains for testing at the range.
The reason why I have gone over max data is because my Lyman manual lists the Hornady 139 grain spire point #2820 with a max 43.0 grains of Reloader.

I’m thinking that I’m ok out to 43.0 grains if needed with the sierra 140’s also?
What do you exsperts suggest?
Vapodog how about you, what do you think please?

Thank you…Vg

I use the maximum loads from 2 or 3 guides as a reference but I would also advise making smaller incremental jumps (.2 grains or so) as you move up.

If your accuracy isn't good, I wouldn't push the loads past max levels. I have seldom seen a gun that doesn't shoot loads between starting and max levels suddenly group with over max loads.

How far are the bullets off the lands?

It's possible your rifle doesn't like the 140 sierras. As an approach to see what the gun likes, I'd get a box of hornady 120 gr V-max. Seat them just kissing the lands, and work up to max loads in 1 gr increments, starting 4 gr below max. See what charge weight groups best, reload that charge then go 1/2 gr under and over that charge weight.

If you haven't found a decent load after those two combos, choose your best charge weight, and try them 10, 25 and 50 thousandths off the lands.

if the groups are getting smaller and you cant see any pressure signs, id keep going. I think i was once 6grs over max with a 300WSM i had.

reloading manuals come with a built in lawyer..safety too prehaps

Unless there's improvement happening, I wouldn't go over max. Try a different powder. A different powder can make a dramatic difference. If that doesn't work, try a different bullet. Your gun just may not like that powder or bullet.

If you really want that powder and bullet, follow Paul H's suggestions.

LWD

As you start with the lower pressure loads and increase the powder charges, group size will decrease to a point and then start to increase in size again.

I stop when:

1. The group size is the smallest or
2. Signs of excessive pressure appear

Once group size starts to open up after getting smaller, you will gain nothing in accuracy by pushing it further. If accuracy isn't acceptable, you'll need to try another bullet and/or powder combo.

If you get several reloading manuals, you will find that "maximum" loads vary quite a bit. In fact, I could give some examples of where the starting load in one manual is about equal to the maximum load in another manual.

Also, what group sizes are you getting and what do you expect?

Gray Area..

over the max load listed, you are starting to play with dynamite...

some powders can pressure spike..

I'd change powders RL 15 is great in All 308 sized cases.. however try another brand of 140 grain bullets first..

you can play with seating depth as listed above..

a load with one 140 grain bullet, may have higher pressure than another brand's 140 grain bullet.... how much of a bearing surface you are dealing with, along with how much it is off the lands..

I've had some rifles barrels that only shot real good, when velocity and pressure were redlined...but the same barrels also shot good when their MV was down around 2000 to 2200 fps..

RL 15 is usually NOT a picky powder.. but I have found IMR 4064, 4895, and 3031 to be even less finicky... so if a barrel won't shoot a powder, I usually try some loads with those powders...

when a load won't shoot, for accuracy, I tend to go down in powder charge instead of up... try 40 grains of RL 15 instead of trying to reach that magical 43 grains...

you won't be giving up that much velocity and that can be compensated for by a few clicks on the scopes elevation adjustment...you aren't sacrificing much with 100 to 150 fps less MV...

i am loading the 7-08 with 44.0 grs of RL-15 with 140 sierra B.T. with no pressure sings at 2940 FPS 24' in. rem. WLR primers... great groups.. i load 42.0 grs RL-15 in my .260 with 120s, no pressure signs 22'in. ruger 2920 FPS both are 1 gr. over... I could go higher but no need.. I was loading the .280 rem. with 57.0 grs of RL-19.. not max load,. but i had pressure signs,. flat primers

Thanks, I appreciate your entire expertise and wisdom guy’s.
I gauged the free bore in this rifle with the Sierra 140 Spitzer and it is 2.766
I’m loading it to 2.760 so I’m close to the lands or is that kissing them?

I have also previously purchased but not yet loaded Hornady 139 grain spire point interlock #2820 bullet until tonight. The bearing surface is longer.
The free bore is 2.840 with this bullet and I have just loaded some to try out, all at 2.835 OAl.
I loaded 39, 40 and 41 grains (3 cartridges each) of RL15 and might add 3 more of 42 grains. Following Paul H recommendations, and I also ordered the 120 grain v Max though I’m thinking the 120 vMax would be a better varmint than deer round.

I exceed published max loads all the time, much more frequently than not b/c I want to know what the max is in my rifle, not what a guide found to be max in their test equipment.

But, I do it cautiously. In a case as small as a 7-08, I wouldn't exceed a .4 gr increment increase at a time. Plus it appears that your bullets are both seated less than .010 off the lands. I'd monkey with seating depth a lot.

My experience is that more than 50% of my loads, depending on bullet make, like to be about .035 off the lands.

Good luck

Thanks Doc,
You know the 140 Sierra OAL in the manual states that it is 2.800 but in my rifle that would be too long being that it has a 2.766 so, I will be swallowing up that bullet some to achieve backing off the lands. That’s good but I’m wondering why my rifle (Model 7) is bored so tight.

My 35 Whelen has an enormous jump to the lands like this:
A Hornady 200 spire point bullet measures up into the lands at 3.380 but if I load it to the cannelure it has an OACL of 3.119 that’s 0.261 jump,
Now the Hornady 250 RN is 3.523 but OACL ends up 3.256 if the bullet is seated to the cannelure. [0.267 jump]

I’m I supposed too extend the 250 grain bullet all the way out to achieve the seating closer to the lands b/c it will then just barley be seated in the case mouth?

I’m a new reloader this year as you can tell, but the questions are good aren’t they?
Or am I just dense?

There are a few important things to consider when changing seating depth.

1) you ALWAYS want there to be enough bullet seated into the neck. I use the old 2/3 rule. I want 2/3 of the neck contacting bullet bearing surface.

2) Different seating depths can dramatically change pressures. Case in point, I had some test loads with everything being identical, except seating depth. Went the bullets were at the lands all the way to .055 off, they were safe. When I got to .060 and deeper, I got hard bolt lift and flattened primers, so pressures can increase with bullets at the lands and when seated deep.

That's why I personally prefer to begin with bullets seated at the land or around .010 off.

The vast majority of my loads are b/w .010 and .050 with few exceptions being as deep as .075 off the lands.

You might want to try the 140 or 150 GR Nosler Partitions also. My Ruger 7-08 really likes the 150 grain partitions, deer not so much.

quote:

Originally posted by graybird:
You might want to try the 140 or 150 GR Nosler Partitions also. My Ruger 7-08 really likes the 150 grain partitions, deer not so much.

I wouldn't compare loads for one bullet to a bullet from a different manufacturer for the reason you noted the bearing surface on the 139 Hornady is longer then the Sierra you were using. The diameter of the bullet and the hardness of the jacket material can make a difference with pressure also.

quote:

I’m thinking that I’m ok out to 43.0 grains if needed with the sierra 140’s also?
What do you exsperts suggest?
Vapodog how about you, what do you think please?

Sitting at a keynoard, it's hard to know.....

First things first…..ok?

I think you're using the wrong powder to achieve the maximum performance and the only reason to go "beyond max" is just that reason. I'd suggest Rl-19 or H-414 or Varget....and be willing to compress some powder.

Next you must set a group threshhold.... Or in other words you must say what group size is acceptable. This idea that smaller is better is really asking for trouble. There is no end to it!

For hi velocity bolt guns I set 1.5" for five shots as the maximum group acceptable and if I get that I'm happy. If not the powder is changed or maybe the bullet is changed or something else. But you must state in advance what group size you are willing to accept.

Note: The world I shoot in does not have fliers unless I know for a fact it was self caused. Fliers are a part of the group.....period!

Now.....as to how much powder.....
Let me also say this.....I only use Modern push feed guns when doing this as I'm very comfortable with their strength and this primarily is the Remington 700 and push feed M-70 rifles. Others may well be as strong.

You can add powder until you see signs of the case starting to fail. I used to use CHE but no longer use it....I use primer pocket expansion now as the primary case failure measurement and one can easily detect a .001 growth in the primer pocket. Unfortunately one must seat a new primer to detect it.....but it's a clear sign of the case failing or startng to fail. I add powder in 1% increments and of course one must always be watching for any and all other signs of pressure.

The answer to the question is to work to the 43 grains in 1/2 grain increments and see what the results are. You may or may not make it! Only your gun and brass will be able to say......and here's the good news.....the next lot of powder or brass or another gun may not be the same......and in all probability won't be!

Once you reach the point of pocket expansion one should reduce the charge at least two full grains (this may be about 5-6,000 PSI) for safety. Three grains reduction is an advisable position as well but it’s up to you.

If, after all of this, the group size meets your threshold then you're ready to go hunting.. if not get a new powder and start all over.....or use a different bullet and start all over.

When one works up a load like this he has reached a max for his gun/brass/powder/bullet/primer and any substitution should require starting over.

Oh....yea.....is it worth it?.....I sure wouldn't argue with a reloader that said no. That said I have a 20" .308 Winny shooting 180 accubonds at 2740 FPS with absolutely no pressure signs at all because I worked up this way. I could have stopped several grains back but didn't!

I have not found a relationship between accuracy and pressure. Some loads worked up like this had horrible groups and some looked fine to me........and this is why I say that you must state in advance what group size you're willing to accept.

If conceivable that you could safely reach 3,000 FPS with 140s in the 7-08 but the group may or may not make the grade. You may also max out at 2,800 FPS as well and again may or may not have good groups.

In the end, the guy that went to the store and bought a box of shells and went hunting just might be the guy with the trophy deer at the end of the season…….he didn’t know what the bullet was or how fast it went or never read a thing about it’s construction……he bought them because they cost the least!!!! If we’re reloading simply because it costs less then we just might be making a grave error. IMO we reload to maximize the performance of our ammo and our own personal marksmanship. The guy that stops adding powder at 50,000 PSI is just as valid in his reloading method as anyone. The extra 100-150 FPS may not be worth a thing and the ½†groups are also of questionable value in a hunting rifle. It’s simply a matter of what the individual reloader wants and there’s no right or wrong. It’s simply this…..know the pressure signs and work up but stop when your requirements are met or when your equipment and components tell you to do so.

quote:

Originally posted by vinnyg:
...I’m a new reloader this year as you can tell, but the questions are good aren’t they?
Or am I just dense?

Hey vinnyg, Your questions are the same ones we all had when we first began Reloading. That means you are thinking about the correct things to be concerned about.

Since you are just starting out, then going beyond the MAX Loads shown in the Manuals is not something I would recommend you do. Most of the folks telling you "How to do it" have many years of Reloading experience and notice small Pressure Indicators that a Beginner just hasn't had an opportunity to learn.

This is not a situation where it is OK to do what other folks have done, because they do not have "your" rifle and "your" cartridge components. What can be totally SAFE for them may be way over Pressure for you. NO WAY for anyone to know.

So, I'd recommend you stay with Loads found in the Manuals. And even then, they may be too much. I have one rifle that MAX Loads shown in the Manuals is just too much Powder.

Best of luck to you.

Thanks Vapodog,
I figured that I could achieve to get every rifle to shoot .5†group @ 100 yds by reloading my own now, accuracy was one of the reasons I took it up. I never looked at it in terms of setting a standard for each firearm. “Makes senseâ€
This rifle has never shot well with any factory ammo ever used but I would like to achieve 1.5 to 1.25†@ 100 yards so I can hunt confidently with it, under 200 yards.

I don’t own a chronograph “yet†to check velocity’s so I’m just looking for good groups.

As far as powder is concerned?
Do listed powder’s that fill the case up to near the base of the bullet being used usually perform better?
You mentioned H414 and Rx19. (Are the slower burning Powders listed for a particular load usually better performing?

As far as high pressure sign’s?
I have some hand gun cases (357 & 44 magnum) that I have loaded 4 to 5 times so far….some of them seem to seat a primer now very easy, is that a sign of a case ready for retirement?

If so, I may then never detect a sticking bolt and high shine (bright) ring around a case until it’s too late.

Sorry for all the questions Vapodog but your help is much appreciated.


Hot Core: Quote- “Most of the folks telling you "How to do it" have many years of Reloading experience and notice small Pressure Indicators that a Beginner just hasn't had an opportunity to learn.
Thank you Hot Core I’ll stay under max and revert to alternate powders instead.

Vg

Max is a relative thing, and varies more gun to gun than I understood 20+ years ago when I started reloading....Your gun may have a larger chamber than another, or longer throat, making heavier loads work for it that the books might indicate. (I have a 7mm RM with 5gr more volume than standard). This can be just fine for you, but might be disasterous if your hunting buddy tries one of your shells in his rifle...

Watch the temptation to load too close to max, (book or otherwise) especially if you are working up loads in cool temperatures and then hunting someplace warm or hot. Don't forget that your handloads may be on the shelf for years before you grab them and go hunting!

With that in mind, I recommend adding notes on the reloading labels if your load might not suit another gun--i. e. "neck sized for X rifle" or "max in ___" or "touches lands in ___".

Careful cleaning and inspection of brass helps me sort out the older cases and prevent problems as well.

I've only once had a bolt start to stick--you won't miss it. That was on a load below the book max. If you think you have the beginning of a ring on a case, just check it with a paperclip.

I recommend trying some good flat-based bullets in your work-ups. One of my rifles has never grouped well with Sierra BT's but shoots into one small hole with Rem PSP CL bullets, which sure was a surprise to me!

It's a great, rewarding hobby--but unlike many it demands your careful attention.

Cheers,

Dan

In 25acp I start the work up at double max load.

Some other cartridges do not have so much wasted safety margin. The .270 comes to mind.

Why not call Sierra and ask for their accuracy loads for the calibers/bullets in question? They will give you several loads and powders. I absolutely agree with the previous statements about setting standards for accuracy. It may be that your standard cannot be achieved with that bullet/powder combination. It may even be that your rifle cannot achieve that. What you are doing when you reload is "tuning". Another word perhaps is "optimizing". This does not mean achieving 1/2' or perhaps even 1" accuracy every time. Just my 0.02! Peter.

I can hardly take reading the responses on these type threads. Manuals are just a guideline, plain and simple. Every rifle is different. Take two Remington 700 ADL's chambered in 308 with consecutive serial #'s...neither will display the same pressure characteristics, there are simply too many factors involved. YOUR rife is YOUR rifle and as such, YOU need to figure out what it likes to eat. I don't care what this or that manual claims to be a max load, only YOUR rifle can tell you how far you can go. Remember, the test gun that was used to come up with the data in the manual, is not YOUR gun. That's why the data varies from manual to manual...different guns. For those not versed in how to watch for excessive pressure signs, you need a mentor to help out. No, not 20 different opinions on an internet forum. Find a local shooter that's been doing it for years and give them a good listening to.

WOW! This thread is packed with wisdom! I've enjoyed following it.

quote:

... but the same barrels also shot good when their MV was down around 2000 to 2200 fps..

seafire2, did this apply to heavier bullets or any bullet weight? This might be very applicable to Lee Enfields because they might not be able to reach the upper 'node'.

Just be careful and watch for ANYpressure signs, each rifle is different.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
...So, I'd recommend you stay with Loads found in the Manuals. And even then, they may be too much. I have one rifle that MAX Loads shown in the Manuals is just too much Powder. ...

Hey Vinnyg, I've inadvertantly pulled a quasi-clinton on you, it is now two rifles that will not reach the MAX shown in some Manuals.

Last year I'd swapped an 18" barrel Blue & Wood 444Mar Guide Gun for a new 24" Stainless & Laminated 444Mar XLR. Messed around with some Down-Loads in it last year and never started Developing a Hunting Load.

Looked in the good old Hodgdon #26 and saw that Loads of H4198 with a 240gr bullet ran from 46.0gr-49.0gr. It also shows the IMR-4198 from 44.0gr-47.0gr, which I'd used in that range in the old Guide Gun and all was well - Pressure wise.

Loaded one box of Once-Fired Factory ammo cases with an IMR-4198 series from 44.0gr-47.0gr. Since this is a shorter range rifle, I intended to do the initial shooting at 100yds. Also loaded a separate box with nothing but 44.0gr Loads so I could get the Williams Fire-Sights on paper and get the Scope on paper as well. Expected no problems at all based on the past history with the previous 444Mar rifle.

Get the Fire-Sights sighted in just a few shots. Then started on the Scope and it was off a good bit. So, I stopped and brought it to the house to try reversing the scope mounts. Had 12 cartridges shot at the 44.0gr(Starting Load level) and had not bothered to measure the CHE & PRE while shooting, because I knew it would be fine.

Got the scope remounted and other things kept me from getting back to shoot some more. Meanwhile..., I picked up the Speer #14 which is their newest Manual. Using IMR-4198 and a 240gr bullet the MAX was now 44.0gr.

Off to the side was a "Tech Note" which mentioned Marlin had changed the Twist Rate in the 444Mar from 1-in-38" to 1-in-20" to help stabalize some of the Heavier Bullets being made for it. Huuuuummmm?

Sure enough the new XLR has the 1-in-20" Twist Rate. Then it dawned on me it might just be a good idea to check the cases I'd shot for PRE. All were slightly above the PRE I'd originally measured on the Factory Loads - a bit too HOT for the Tighter Twist Rate.

Sooooo, the new XLR falls within the Range shown in the latest Speer Manual, but older Speer and Hodgdon Manuals had the Loads Developed with the 1-in-38" Twist Rate, and therefore can use a bit more Powder in the Slower Twist.
-----

This is a Classic Example of how a person with over 5-decades of Reloading experience can get the Pressure a bit too high. It is ALWAYS a good idea to measure CHE & PRE when starting with any new rifle and new Load.

Good Hunting and clean 1-shot Kills.

You will get a lot of free advice here and it is worth exactly what you pay for it in some cases. The loading manuals are developed using equipment not available but to a select few hand loaders and can measure pressure much more accurately. The old lawyer comment is one that most of us laugh about during matches (few of the shooters are ballisticians and engineers at bullet manufacturers) because pressure is pressure even if it is only a very short moment in time.

Each barrel is different esp if you are shooting factory tubes without the luxury of have the same reamer to cut each chamber. Pay attention to your data because most of the time not all of the time the highest pressure load will not shoot the smallest group or have the smallest shot to shot velocity deviation.

Do not take for granted that a 30 cal 165 Speer will shoot the same powder charge as a 168 SMK for example. Jacket material, core composition and bearing surface will be different which causes different pressures et al velocities. Just be smart and patient in you development work and it will be fine. Just a final thought----no matter who tells you or what you read ambient temperature has a significant impact on pressures! DO NOT work up a close to max load in 45 degree weather and expect it to still function the same at 85 degrees.

When shooting your groups and checking velocities make sure the target is perfectly acquired before pushing the round into the chamber and closing the bolt---why---for the first couple of rounds this is NBD but as the chamber heats then it is transferring that heat to the brass and propellant which will cause higher pressures upon ignition.

Good Luck!!