How do you guys determine the overal cartridge length needed? Where do you measure? what equipment is needed (cheapest route)?
I'm trying to determine what oal needs to be when seated just off the lands in my rifle. Should I use magic marker and chambering or range rod or some other method and shouldn't I be measuring to the ogive and not the point of the bullet?

Good question... I was just about to post the same one b/c I dont' know how far off the lands I will be with my new TSX.

Someone on this board--I've forgotten who--made the following suggestion, which I have used ever since:

Form a casing. Then cut to thin slits down the neck, to the shoulder, 180 degrees apart. Remove the burrs.

Seat a bullet just into the neck. Chamber the dummy round you have just made. Take it out, and measure its length. That is the COL that puts that bullet at the lands.

best and cheapest way to do it right is the sinclair OAL tool and comparator.

I'm with JustC

I tried the slit in the neck and the lands will grab your bullet and pull it back out partway. If you still have enough tension in the slit neck so the lands won't pull it out, then it takes more force to push the bullet back and the bullet is pushed into the lands. Again not accurate.

Used to use a Stoney Point OAL gauge and comparator but just recently got a Sinclair gauge. One gauge works for all your calibers and it is foolproof (which helps me out).

Hey JustC, so far when I use the Sinclair I set the gun muzzle down and gently drop the bullet in the chamber. Then I use a dowel rod to break the bullet free of the lands (amazing how they grip a bullet) and gently let it back down to the lands before setting the lock nut. On the sized case I push it as hard as I can with my little finger to set it against the shoulder. Any other tricks you found out? I don't have the Sinclair Comparator. I suppose once I have the OAL I could use the Stoney Point Comparators.

Just started working with the Sinclair. I had some 300 win and some 30-06 cartridges that I had loaded with the Stoney Point. Thought I was .02" off with the AB's in the 30-06 and .05" off with the TSX's in the 300 win, but the Sinclair said I was .08" off with the AB's and .025" off with the TSX's. Haven't figured that one out yet. Just shot those and the TSX's shot excellent and the AB's shot terrible.

What I've always done is this. Seat the bullet into a FL sized case. Take a black magic marker and "paint" the bullet where the shank meets the ogive. Chamber the cartridge. When no land marks appear on bullet, you are just off the lands. When you scrape off the black marker, you are hitting the lands. Pretty easy and pretty cheap.

MM

Best way I've found...

http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=62608&highlight=col

Tim

quote:

Posted 01 August 2005 03:20
What I've always done is this. Seat the bullet into a FL sized case. Take a black magic marker and "paint" the bullet where the shank meets the ogive. Chamber the cartridge. When no land marks appear on bullet, you are just off the lands. When you scrape off the black marker, you are hitting the lands. Pretty easy and pretty cheap.

Always worked for me also

woods,..I have to tap my bullets out to. I have learned to just let the weight of the cleaning rod with no jag tap the pill out. As far as the case,..sometimes I wipe them with a bit of Kroil so they slide in easily. The ejector and lugs put a large amount of pressure on the case when they are rotated into battery,..so I lube the fired case and give it a bit of a tap with the tool before I run the measurement. You can't force it past a shoulder hitting the chamber,..so a bit of pressure on the case is what I feel comfortable with. That way I KNOW it is seated to the shoulder. The sinclair is a great tool isn't it?

In my shop I have a set of those magnifying goggles that Brownell's sells. I intentionally seat the bullet a bit long in a case with NO powder and an expended primer. Then I chamber the round.

Using the goggles, I can see if the lands are marking the bullet ogive and, if so, how far into the lands it is being pushed when seated to that length. If I want to, I can then turn the seating die in a bit, seat another bullet, and see how much the land marks have decreased. When I get to where there is no land mark, I know that I really am right at the lands but not into them, in that rifle.

Just FYI, many benchrest shooters adjust their first trial loads for a new rifle or barrel to where the marks they get on the ogive are "square"...that is, as far into the lands (the marks are as long) as they are wide.

With a little calculation, it is pretty easy to figger how far off the lands you are. If your threads on the die are 14 to the inch, then obviously, one full turn must equal 1/14th of an inch, 1/2 turn equals 1/28th inch, etc. Convert that to to decimals, and it is pretty skookum easy to tell how much to turn the die (or seating plug) in or out, to seat the bullet a few thousandths more or less into the lands.

My trick, and I'll welcome comments on the soundness of this practice, is to put a cleaned case in to the reloading die and resize a smidgen of the neck, just enough to grip a hand placed bullet. It's then just a matter of pushing the long throated round into the chamber. With only the minimum of grip the bullet on contact with the lands is pushed into the neck. I then measure the oal of that cartridge from that rifle, with that bullet, record it and deduce ten thou as a starting load for testing.
It seems to work.
Am I a fool or is this the cheapest way of finding the oal of any case bullet combination?

I have been wrong before, my wife has told me so.

Oldun,

I use your method too, except that I start with seating 0.005" deeper than the chambered round.

So if two wrongs make a right we're in good shape.

quote:

Am I a fool or is this the cheapest way of finding the oal of any case bullet combination?

Damb oldun I cant ever remember if a smidgen
is smaller than a skosch or vice-versa those two units of measurements have always confused me.
Now what am I to do with my black marker?

Radioactivecowboy: I agree with JustC! The small amount of money I spent on the wonderful Sinclair Seating Depth Tool was some of the best money I have ever spent reloading wise! I paid $17.00 for mine some years ago.
My happiness with this tool can not be over-emphasized! It cut down on my load testing to find an accurate load per Rifle by 75% at least!
Having said that! More recently - in the last 6 - 7 years it seems EVERY large factory that manufactures Rifles began making the throats of the chambers so long that I am not able to even come close to the leades of the Rifling with my handloads!
I either run out of magazine room for the handload or I simply can't keep enough bullet in the case for safety and come anywhere near the rifling!
I still am getting some very righteous accuracy from my Rifles but this new phenomenon of Weatherby like "free-boring" puzzles me! Why I say to myself?
I think velocities are affected somewhat (adversely - lowered) by this new factory "policy" these days! Lot of gas (I am guessing) gets around that bullet before it engages the Rifling anymore!
Anyway these tools are relatively cheap still (around $24.00) and work with the brass and bullets you already have so nothing else to buy!
JustC is also right in that you should have one of the "bullet comparator" tools also.
Now if you are going with custom Rifles then yes you can set the O.A.L. of your cartridge with this fine Sinclair Tool to EXACTLY what amount of thousandths of an inch you wish to be off of the lands (leades of the rifling)!
I highly recommend the Sinclair Tool.
Good luck with whichever tool/method you try!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Thanks guys! I think I'll get one of the sinclair tools.

I've tried all of the above methods, the Sinclair toll is the way to go.

Varmint Guy--I've had exactly the same experience trying to workup accurate loads--always running out of case neck or magazine before getting to the lands (or close enough to be really accurate). For that reason, the last 2 .22-250s I've had have been 2-shooters with one in the chamber and one in the mag. My Savage M110 .223 is the same way, but they shoot great. My .25-06 and 7 Mag like more bullet jump, and I've not experienced the problem with them.

I use the Stoney Point OAL guage and find it works well, but there is a slight learning curve. At first I'd measure three times and get three different readings. Then I got the hang of it, and found it very easy and accurate. Just remember, not all bullets shoot best when touching the lands. Some prefer a slight jump before making contact. You are actually measuring to the ogive where the bullet is at its widest and will go no further. Since you are measuring with a caliper your reading is of the entire cartridge length, but what is beyond the ogive isn't all that important. It's just sitting out there in empty space, not touching anything. Best wishes.

Cal - Montreal

Thank you Wrong Target. I am new to this board but not new to reloading. several yrs ago Some buddies and I were messing around and came up with a system to determine that MAX COL of a rifle. After some tinkering with the idea and a few changes to its design, I took it to the patent office. I have a tool for sale, still small time but trying to get bigger. This one tool will determine the contact point for any rifle/bullet combination in less than a minute. there are no modified case to be used. It will work in any action type ie.auto, break over, pump gun, lever action, bolt action. It works in any rifle between 20 cal and 45 cal, with barrels of 28" or less.
I am so confident in it that I send the tool out and if you like it you send me a check for $25.00. If you dont like it send it back. I can be reached at r_reeves61@bellsouth.net

quote:

Originally posted by radioactivecowboy:
How do you guys determine the overal cartridge length needed? Where do you measure? what equipment is needed (cheapest route)?...

Hey RAC, Kind of surprised no one mentioned the good old Cleaning Rod method. If you have one and a Flat Tipped Jag, the the cost would be nothing at all.

1. Put the Flat Tipped Jag in the cleaning rod.
2. Close the Bolt on the empty rifle.
3. Slip the cleaning rod in the muzzle (being careful not to wham the crown) and let the Jag rest against the Bolt-face.
4. Place a piece of tape as close to the muzzle as possible around the cleaning rod and remove the rod from the barrel.

5. Take a single bullet out of the box and think of it as the "Set-Up Bullet"(SUB). It will be used for a few things.
6. Remove the Bolt, drop in the SUB and hold something against the Base of the SUB to keep it from sliding back.
7. Slip the cleaning rod back in the barrel until it touches the SUB.
8. Take a 0.001" Capable Caliper and measure from the Muzzle to the leading edge of the tape. This is the "Kiss-the-Lands" distance for the SUB which can be thought of as the Overall (possible) Cartridge Length(OCL).

9. If you do not intend to "Crimp", put an empty Case in the Press Shell Holder.
10. Raise the Ram and screw the Seating Die into the press until it contacts the empty Case, then back it out one turn and set the Lock Ring.
11. Make sure you can remove and replace the Seating Die, then screw it back in until the Lock Ring touches the Press.
12. Using that empty case, Seat the SUB to the OCL and set the Seating Stem Lock Nut.

13. Remove the Seating Die from the Press and measure across the length of it with the Calipers from the top of the Seating Stem to the Base.
14. Record that number on the Bullet Box as the Overall Die Length(ODL). Since the Seating Stem touches the bullet on the Ogive, it eliminates most of the variations in length of the bullets in the box.

Example: Let's say the ODL is 4.325" for that box of bullets. And you want to Seat some 0.025" "Off-the-Lands". You pre-adjust the Seating Die to 4.300" screw it into the Press and begin loading bullets.

If you try to measure the OCL at this point, it may create some confusion because it will vary slightly from cartridge to cartridge. This is because of variances in the individual "Bullet Lengths" within a box and should be ignored. The main thing is they are all Seated so the Ogive is the same distance off-the-Lands and that is assured by Seating them slowly and smoothly.

Each time you open a new box of bullets you need to do this. It compensates for the Throat Receeding and variations in the Bullet Manufacturing process from Lot-to-Lot.

Best of luck to you and please don't throw any of the "Tools" in my direction if you find getting them to give you repeatable accuracy is a bit tricky.

I've tried HC's method, but found it too sloppy. That is, not precise enough. What I prefer now is the method oldun described except I take a measurement with 10 or so different bullets from the same box. This gives me a pretty good average and the measurements with each are usually within .001" to .002" of each other, so that gives me some confidence in what I'm doing.

I've tried the home brew methods and prefer Randy's COL gauge, it's easy to use and is extremely repeatable...the precision machined gauge stops and rod take any inaccuracy out of the equation. r_reeves61@bellsouth.net



Tim

I am with DeltaHunter, basically Oldun's method with several different bullets, and I even go so far as to use a couple of different case (fireformed in the specific rifle and then sized enough to get the first portion of the neck squeezed down to hold the bullet) I also have the Sinclair gauge, and I get similar data using the old fireformed case and bullet method, which is actually quicker for me.

I use the "HC" method for OAL. One minor difference, I use two knife marks made across the muzzle being careful to keep the blade horizontal. I see OAL as a safety issue, sort of like a DNE (do not exceed) velocity with an aircraft, as long as you are this side of the "problem" you are OK. If you are target shooting, seat into the lands after backing off the powder charge in the usual way. I have no skill and no eyes for accurate shooting anymore, just interested in hunting grade accuracy and safe pressures when I reload.

I use HotCores method but have made a little tool to help like Wrongtarget shows. Works for me

If you're loading for hunting, and reserve cartridges will be held in a magazine, it's the magazine that determines your maximum OAL. Your most accurate OAL may or may not be shorter than this. I seat my bullets to a maximum OAL of .005" shorter than the magazine allows as a starting point. I then paint my bullets with a magic marker and see if any rifling marks appear on the ogive. If not, that's the maximum OAL for that particular bullet in that rifle. I seat all my bullets to make sure that the LONGEST cartridges are no more than .005" under magazine length (some bullet tips are longer than others). Then I use the ogive on the LONGEST cartridge as a reference point with my comparator, and seat bullets on the rest of the cartridges to match.

quote:

My trick, and I'll welcome comments on the soundness of this practice, is to put a cleaned case in to the reloading die and resize a smidgen of the neck, just enough to grip a hand placed bullet. It's then just a matter of pushing the long throated round into the chamber. With only the minimum of grip the bullet on contact with the lands is pushed into the neck. I then measure the oal of that cartridge from that rifle, with that bullet, record it and deduce ten thou as a starting load for testing.
It seems to work.
Am I a fool or is this the cheapest way of finding the oal of any case bullet combination?

Always use this method and works well for me!
But might get the Stoney point tool thou!

regards

i read this technique i think here on this forum some time back tried it and seems to work. but you still need the stoney cailbre specfic inserts and the comparator.

this does not work with boattail bullets must be truly flat based bullet

take a flat based bullet insert it spire point into non-primed, non-charged, sized case as for out as possible and measure it. now chamber this backwards seated dummy round. remove the chamber seated round and measure. this new measurement should be less than the orginal. this new measurement is the kiss or jam measurement. now put this chamber seated round in your seating die and turn the the seat adjustment down till it kisses the flat of backwards chamber seated round. your die should now be set so that a loaded round's ogive will kiss or jam against the lands. seat a dummy round as you normally would and chamber it, it should have slight rifling marks. now go back to the seater die turn the seat adjustment in and measure until you are as for off the lands that you wish.

i have used the stoney and as has been stated above there seems to be learning curve. the method described above seems help me get the jam measurement a lot quicker.

as always just my experience (jme)

size, seat long, jam the bolt closed, remove, use to set seating die to contact bullet, and there ya go.