Gents
I went to the range today and chronographed some reloads for the .22 hornet.(1967 zkw465, Helia ct 3-9x42, versapod)
The original intention was to find a load for the 40grain HDY jet. Anyway, I started to cronograph my S&B 45 gn FMJ grouse bullets, spread on 14 bullets were: 268 fps.
Average velocity: 2572fps
These are loaded in win. cases, trimmed, PMC NTSR primer, 11,8gn lil´gun. Conditions on the range, mild wind, 13°C cloudy with patches of blue sky.

Should the extreme spread be this large? I could not check accuracy when I shoot through the chrony on this range. Earlier this load made less than one inch group at the same range & distance repeatedly.

Next load, 12,15 gn lilgun and the 40gn hdy v-max.
7 shots, average velocity: 2629 fps, extreme spread 88 fps. Cases and primers as above.

Third load, and the reason for the trip to the range:

Hdy Jet, 40 gn, 11,8gn lilgun, trimmed SAKO cases with pmcntsr primer.
3 shots, 3037fps, 3030 fps, 2789 fps
This is 0,2 grain UNDER the adviced starting load from Hodgdon, and still the velocity is above 3000fps! (Max velocity 2826 fps according to hodgdon for a 40gn jackeded bullet with 13 gn lil´gun)
Next serie of 3 shots through the chrony showed slightly flattened primers and barely noticable sticky extraction. Only one of the 3 shots were registred, 2721 fps. This was 11,9gn of lilgun. 0,1 gn UNDER the adviced starting load.

At this point I stopped shooting the Jet bullets and checked the last FMJ and V-Max. Those were shot without any pressure signs.

The sako cases are slightly smaller than the win cases in capacity. I would guess that around 12,5 gn Lil´gun fits in a sako case without drop tube, while the winchester case can take 14,04 gn lil´gun. The smaller case capacity is one of the reasons why I chosed to start under minimum load, another reason is that the .22 Hornet is mostly used for hunting edible game with FMJ bullets, so too much velocity will blast a rock ptarmigan to pieces even with a FMJ bullet. I therefore like to keep velocities down and as even as possible.

Is it the SAKO case that makes the pressures and velocities go up?
All bullets are seated so that they fit the magazine, thus it is also an amount of freebore and not putting the bullets to the bore lands.

I will pull the remaining JET bullets.

Any suggestions or explanations to these questions are most welcome!

Sincerely

Daniel

You answered your own question. Small cases are sensitive to small variations in case capacity or powder charge.

I have no experience with the hornet, and I'm not familiar with the bullets you mentioned, so I don't know if bullet bearing length or diameter were variables.

Your velocity variation is pretty dissappointing with all loads. I'm not a big fan of Lil Gun -- it's OK but not exceptional and not a miracle powder as some of Hodgdon's data suggests. Any thing that Lil Gun will do, H110/WW296 will do just as well, plus the ball powders meter better which might help you with the velocity variation.

I'm sure you already know that the Hornet has a reputation for being picky about primers.

Just armchair theory, take it with a grain of salt. Sounds like you already know what you are doing.

Huglu, After the last week of testing Lil Gun in my 1949 BRNO Hornet I have to agree with you about the extreme velocity spreads. My observation is that that as the case becomes fuller with powder the spreads go down. To say, 12 grains with the 35 V-Max shot poorly, with great variation, and 13 grains shot well (1 MOA) at 2979 ft/sec's. I also would say that the jet bullets (.222) may not be obturating as well as you like at lower pressures. That said: I have been using Rem - Peters cases both brass and nickel plated. The nickel cases were used because they were new. I have shot Hornady 45 grain, Sierra 45 grain, Nosler 40 grain BT's and Hornady 35 V-Maxes. The 300 ft/sec spreads were not uncommon. I have been using the Rem Small Pistol primers, and do not try to read primers for pressure. Accuracy has been variable, to not so good, and my 13.5 grain load of AA 1680 with the 35 V-Max still is holding at around .65 MOA @ 100 yards. With that I use a CCI small pistol magnum primer. It is my plan to shoot the Lil Gun loads so equipted next week. Best all around load has been 12 grains of AA 1680 with the Winchester 46 grain HP bullet, just better for distance. Good luck and keep trying.

Thanks for replies!
I will see what I can do when I start working a load with the winchester cases. Just waiting for the primers to arrive, I am all out now.

308Sako, it was very interesting with the observation about the filling of the case and accuracy.
I chose the PMC NTSR primers because they were non-toxic and specifically adapted to the small rifles. In winter the temperatures are -25 to -35°C when hunting, so a pistol primer might not be able to ignite properly. People here have had those problems with pistol primers.

I will see what the Win Cases can give.

Sincerely
Daniel

Another thought,
If there is a generally higher velocity to be gained with the lil´gun powder, would it be possible to have a stabilized 50 grain bullet going atleast 2670 fps at 115 yards? If this is possible, then the hornet have just qualified to take down a roe deer according to the legal system here.
Perhaps rem cases and only use them one time?

Sincerely
Daniel

Daniel, I think that the answer to the 50 grain bullet @ 2670 ft/secs would be a yes. The way you post that you want a remaining velocity of 2670 at 115 yards? This will require a initial or muzzle velocity significantly higher. I will use my Sierra program and some keyboard calculus to figure that one out as well. I will post my loads tomorrow evening and show how erratic they were, and what velocities have been achieved so far. I will try the Hornady .224/50 grain SX bullets because I believe that they have a thinner jacket and will upset better. I have seen printed warnings about using small rifle powders with the Lil Gun powder, but will press on with the small pistol magnums to see if the loads can be made more consistant. I am not in favor of loads which can cause case failure after as little as one firing, especially in the .22 Hornet. In my experience the brass is just to thin an envelope. Have you access to RWS components there? And how do they stand as to case capacity? Also Lapua is about as good as it gets here, any Hornets from them?






Dave

Ok, so I couldn't wait to find out how fast the 50 grain bullet would be required to start (muzzle velocity) in order to have the required 2670 ft/secs at 115 yards (which I assume is 100 meters.)


Short answer is that I am wrong, it isn't going to happen from the Hornet case. If is does happen, it will be way over pressure. I would try to load that in a Ruger #1 with a 26 inch barrel though.....

Sierra's answer is: 3120 ft/secs muzzle velocity are required to get 2670.2 ft/secs remaining at 115 yards here at my home 80 degrees Farenheit, 50 % humidity and 853 ASL.

One more thing that I can't recall being mentioned that has helped my Hornets a great amount, a Lee factory crimp die. This could help the extreme spreads a lot. My 2 pennies...

Thanks again for replies!
I guessed that it would be a long shot.
The reason for the question is that ammunition for roe deer size animals must have an expanding bullet with an energy of minimum 800joule at 100m. The bullet weight must also be atleast 50 grains here. Since the twist in the barrel do not stabilate bullets much heavier than 50 grains, that would be the way to try it.
When I had a 40 gn bullet going 3000 fps with minimum load, new possiblities opened in my head...
But, IF pressures are over specified max, then I will not give it a try.
It would be cool though to have a rifle to use for deer and grouses at the same time. The gun laws here are strange, so I am not allowed to take a rifle with more than 800joule energy at 100m to the mountains and hunt small game, still, am I not allowed to use the .22 hornet for roe deer out to the distance it will have more than the required 800 joule.

I have some RWS cases, but the rim is too thick on them to fit in the LEE or RCBS shell holder, besides, they take as little powder as NORMA or SAKO. I have not seen any Lapua shells, although they would be the best due to the reputation from other calibers.

I will also see if I can crimp the bullets.
But I am surprised that the Jet bullet would be that fast/erratic. It was actually Hornadys guys that suggested that bullet.

Sincerely
Daniel

quote:

Originally posted by Huglu:
...The reason for the question is that ammunition for roe deer size animals must have an expanding bullet with an energy of minimum 800joule at 100m. The bullet weight must also be atleast 50 grains here. Since the twist in the barrel do not stabilate bullets much heavier than 50 grains, that would be the way to try it. ... When I had a 40 gn bullet going 3000 fps with minimum load, new possiblities opened in my head... The gun laws here are strange, so I am not allowed to take a rifle with more than 800joule energy at 100m to the mountains and hunt small game, still, am I not allowed to use the .22 hornet for roe deer out to the distance it will have more than the required 800 joule....

Hey Daniel, That is an interesting situation you are trying to resolve. Definitely worth trying to achieve the "balance" of enough Bullet Weight and Velocity to meet a specific "Legal Requirement" at two extremes.

Stick this thought in the back of your mind, what you are trying to accomplish can easily be done with a 221Fireball, 222Rem, and the 223Rem by Down Loading.

The only question in my mind would be if the local Law Enforcement would believe you were actually using Down Loads to meet your 800 joule Requirement.

Does your Law Enforcement just go by Factory Ammo Specs to determine if a Cartridge you are using meets the Law?

Is there a unique Cartridge in Sweden that the Law was written for so folks are forced to use it?

hot core:
Hm, the gun laws here are not that simple, and we shall NOT even talk about what the police or the licence persons would, will and can do to screw things up.
The normal procedure is that a factory loaded ammunition with a specified amount of energy, velocity and bullet type are the requirements for certain species.

The LOADER makes a warranty that this cartridge meets these standards.

If you are a handloader, it is you that bear the responsibility that the cartridges fit in one or the other class(tables, chrono etc).

However, a rifle chambered for a certain cartridge will also limit its usage in certain aspects. The district EPA/fish/game department have prohibited the use of all rifles of .222Rem or larger on governmental lands. This is regardless of energy levels. So, the most powerful rifle to bring to the mountains for the small game (fox, birds and so on) is the .22 Hornet. As the gun ownership here is limited to 6 guns, I dont have the opportunity to get a 222 rem/243 win for the roe deers as I currently have my 6. And, the step from .22 Hornet to my other workable rifle is a bit big, .375HH is a bit overkill I think...
Still, I have to use the big bore as of today.

So, In my case, NO one would believe me if I had a .222 rem that was downloaded, and since that rifle (or stronger) is prohibited to use as of today, it is also illegal to transport and use it in the area.
IF I would be able to get a decent accuracy load for the hornet at given velocities/pressures/energy, it would be easier to convince the cops that this is not a off the shelf gun, its a hotrodded rifle which according to load data and chronography meets the requirements for that purpose. In that case, I would probably have to use the Hornet as a SINGLE SHOT rifle and seat the bullet 0,1mm from the bore lands. Thus more powder could fit without compression and perhaps velocities could go up without too much pressure?

It would probably be enough to have a load report with velocities printed to show if any questions are asked, and that these figures are the same as the figures when testing the ammo.

no specific calibres are forced here. Although it is hard to get anything above cal 30 sometimes. Cal 50 would be a real nightmare, atleast where I live.
Anything above the national calibre 6,5x55 is too large according to some police employees.

There are 4 different energy classes,
class 1 is the heavy ones, from 6,5x55 and up. (2000/2700 joule and up at 100m minmum 140/156 gn expanding bullet)
Class 2 is
from .222 rem to 6,5x55.(800-2000 joule at 100m, atleast 50gn expanding bullet)
Class 3 is from .22wm to .222 rem (minimum 200 joule at 100 m, minimum 40 gn bullet)
class 4 is for minimum 150 joule at the muzzle with 40 grain bullet and up to 22wm.

These energy levels kind of make sense too, but it is always fun to be able to make the most out of the equipment and use the same rifle for many different purposes. Thats the joy of beeing a handloader, to tailor things according to the specific need.
Airport hunters, game wardens and so on might use the .22 hornet for roe deer in urban areas. So, it is not that far from true legality in normal factory loads.

Would a rebore to .22K-Hornet solve this issue?

But first must I see if I can get the extreme spread down to manageable levels. Only then can I see if it is any idea to proceed with this project.

Sorry for a long reply, but the gun laws are not easy to understand,and there are many catch 22s all over the place.

Sincerely
Daniel

quote:

Would a rebore to .22K-Hornet solve this issue?

Hey Daniel, As I was reading your reply, I was wondering the same thing.

You could do a "Find" and locate some threads on them and also start a new Thread about them.

Best of luck to you.

As promised


.22 Hornet from BRNO rifle

35 Hornady V-Max AA 1680 ALL @ COL 1.735 inches
13.0 grains R 7 ½ BR primers Winchester cases Vel = 2754 SD 24 ES 61

13.0 grains CCI 550 SPist mag Winchester cases Vel = 2493 SD 59 ES 181
13.0 grains CCI 550 SPist mag RemingtonPeters Vel = 2427 SD 12 ES 34

13.0 grains R 1 ½ Small Pistol Remington Peters Vel = 2485 SD 15 ES 40
13.0 grains R 1 ½ Small Pistol RemingtonPeters Vel = 2470 SD 35 ES 97

13.5 grains R 1 ½ Small Pistol RemingtonPeters Vel = 2584 SD 34 ES 85

Lil Gun, note velocity spreads and deviation figures
11.5 grains R 1 ½ Small Pistol R-P nickel cases Vel = 3097 SD 200 ES 472***
12.0 grains R 1 ½ Small Pistol R-P nickel cases Vel = 3026 SD 114 ES 312
12.5 grains R 1 ½ Small Pistol R-P nickel cases Vel = 2894 SD 5 ES 14
13.0 grains R 1 ½ Small Pistol R-P nickel cases Vel = 2959 SD 28 ES 71

Not surprisingly 12.5 grains shot well, but the ignition characteristics of this powder/bullet/cartridge do come to question……….. Now heavier bullets:

40 Nosler Ballistic Tip Lil Gun Single loading @ COL 1.932 inches
11.0 grains R 1 ½ Small Pistol R-P nickel cases Vel = 2760 SD 196 ES 371
11.5 grains R 1 ½ Small Pistol R-P nickel cases Vel = 2719 SD 127 ES 297

More powder, but less velocity????????????

45 Hornady Spire Point Lil Gun All @ COL 1.735
10.00 grs R 1 ½ Small Pistol R-P older brass Vel = 2654 SD 88 ES 211
10.25 grs R 1 ½ Small Pistol R-P older brass Vel = 2790 SD 6 ES 11*
10.50 grs R 1 ½ Small Pistol R-P older brass Vel = 2759 SD 38 ES 71
10.75 grs R 1 ½ Small Pistol R-P older brass Vel = 2616 SD 51 ES 102
* shot .4 MOA So using new R-P nickel cases, and the same????? Load
10.25 grs R 1 ½ Small Pistol R-P nickel cases Vel = 2455 SD 28 ES 64

Hodgdon H 4227
11.4 grs R 1 ½ Small Pistol R-P nickel cases Vel = 2498 SD 16 ES 39

45 Sierra Soft Point
11.4 grs R 1 ½ Small Pistol R-P nickel cases Vel = 2507 SD 13 ES 35

46 Winchester HP My standard accuracy load for this BRNO rifle
12.0 grs AA 1680 CCi 550 SPM Winchester Vel = 2425 SD 23 ES 72

Wow, thats an extreme spread in velocity!
I also had one shot of 11,9 grains with lower velocity (2721) than the 11,8 grain 3030/3037/2789 fps load. IRRATIC!

I made some calculations on the swedish website robsoft.nu and came to the following figures, using a 50 grain bullet and data from Hodgdons homepage for the .22K-Hornet.
Velocities converted from fps to mps.


50 GR. SIE BK DIA. .224 COL: 1.900"

Starting load: 12,0gn lil´gun
Distance Velocity Energy Trajectory Drop Flight time

0 m 815 m/s 1063 j -40 mm 0 mm 0 sek
100 m 675 m/s 730 j -8,64 mm 83,75 mm 0,135 sek

Maximum load: 13,0gn lil´gun
Distance Velocity Energy Trajectory Drop Flight time
0 m 861 m/s 1186 j -40 mm 0 mm 0 sek

100 m 717 m/s 822 j -6,35 mm 74,73 mm 0,127 sek

With this load in the .22K-hornet, a start and a max load from hodgdon, the rifle should be legal (in the max load) for Roe deer and Beavers too(those with big front teeth and dam building addiction). Regardless of distance.... As long as it exceeds 800 joule at 100m, it is legal to use it on 3km shooting... Still this eventual conversion would not make it a issue to take it to the mountains since the .22 hornet or 22k-hornet is considered a legal cartridge there. The question is if a monometal expanding bullet can be used at these velocities and pressures that are needed? The gun laws are about to change (for the worse again), which means that after 1 january 2008, all lead in ammunition is illegal and have to be replaced. Will a Barnes x do the trick?

Sincerely
Daniel

Daniel, About 15 years ago I used a then Kimber of Oregon .22K Hornet, the serial number was KH60, a goregoues rifle. Why I ever sold it I don't remember. Regardless, at the time I was able to shoot the 40 grain Nosler BT's at 3250 ft.sec's with ease using 14 grains of AA1680 and Small rifle primers. It was a hotter load than I would use today, but Lil Gun may make up the pressure difference. The K hornet is a wonderful relaoding cartridge and I have been thinking about getting one of the Cooper rifles in that caliber. Back in those days my business partner was also a rifle addict and he is a great fan of the .22 Hornet as well. His load was with Winchester 296 and the 50 grain Hornady or Sierra, and it chronographed in excess of 3000 ft/sec at the muzzle, but ruined cases and Coyotes.

I see that when your laws change once again, the non-lead bullet will have to be an expanding bullet. Once again in the not so far distant past Barnes had a 45 grain .224 bullet for the Hornet which they tried very extensively in South Africa on Plains game and found to be quite effective. I do not know if they still produce it, or if it was an expanding type. I never tried them as generally Barnes have not worked to well for me. Also I found many errors reading their most recent relaoding manual and have atended their reloading seminars at the Safari Club convention, and left unimpressed with the level of knowledge shown.

A friend dropped of a New England Handi in hornet this evening which isn't shooting well, so I will have some additional reason to shoot some more Hornet ammunition once again this week. Keep you posted on the findings. We have quite a few Beaver around here as well, along with a high density of Deer and Bear, Coyotes and Cats, etc. I will also work on the dogs this year wihth the Hornet.



Best regards

David

Had the opportunity to get a few rounds off with the NEF and 50 grain bullets. Went right at it wiht 50 and 13.o grains of LilGun with CCI 550 sm pist mags. Unfortunately did not have time to put out the chronograph, so only can tell you that they worked and shot well enough for starters. Loaded length in Winchester brass was 1.860, These didn't seem to contact the rifling, so I don't know how much free bore existed. Potent load for sure.

The .22 Hornet (like all small capacity cases) is prone to wide velocity spreads, and it seems that Lil Gun exacerbates this tendancy. While reasonable velocity spreads don't always spoil accuracy, the 200+ fps variations I've experienced with Lil Gun seem to correlate to the marginal accuracy I've had with it. W296 is giving me much better overall performance.

As to reaching the "magic number" with a .22 Hornet or K-Hornet, I agree that it is perhaps a little beyond the margin of safety with this round. If the .222 or larger is prohibited, then the next smallest non-prohibited round would be the .221 Fireball. I don't think you'd have much trouble meeting the 50gr./2670fps/100 meter standard with it. The .218 K-Bee is also a possibility, but the .221 would be easier to chamber in a common bolt action like a Sako L-461 or equivalent.

Stonecreek
Could the .221 Fireball be chambered in a .22Hornet rifle? what modifications had to be done? Is it a rimmed case or is it a normal case?
I am not at all familiar with the .221 fireball.

The thing here is that it should be versatile enough to be able to have a normal load at just less than 800 joule at 100 m with a maximum 50 grain bullet. If it superseeds this energy level with normal loads in nominal bullet weight for the caliber, then it is termed in the class above the hornet, and is then automatically prohibited... Its a very thin and FINE line to walk here...

In normal loads it should be a 22 hornet, but cranked up, it should be a .222 rem...

Sincerely
Daniel

The .221 Fireball is a shortened .222. It was originally designed for a Remington single-shot bolt action pistol.

Although it has been factory chambered in rifles (recently in a limited edition of the Rem 700 Classic and perhaps in some early Kimbers and Coopers) its published ballistics are from a 10" handgun barrel and the best I recall are something like a 50 grain bullet at 2800 fps. From a rifle barrel, you should be able to reach your 50/2670/100m standard, but cannot reach the 3200 fps MV of the 50gr/.222.

Some actions chambered for the Hornet would work with this round, while the actions based on a rimfire would not.