At some point it seems that group size will be limited by the amount of magnification available. If magnification is too low or the thickness of the crosshair is too wide, it becomes very difficult to shoot smaller groups because you can't see enough of the bullseye.

I have seen this happen with open or ghost ring sights at long range. The front sight post on an M16 probably covers 1/2 of the target at 300 meters.

At what point does this begin to affect a modern rilfe with a 3-9 variable scope and hunting reticle? Is this part of the reason it's tough to make a hunting rifle with a standard 3-9 scope shoot less than 3/4" at 100 yards? I realize that barrel size and weight, trigger pull, etc.. will afect groups size. I'm wondering what affect the scope alone will have on groups. How many of you can consistently shoot 1/2" groups from the bench with a good hunting rifle (read that as a rifle weighing 9 pounds or less scoped with a standard 40mm 3-9 variable, 3-4 lb trigger, good bedding etc..)? Have you seen groups drop significantly with a more powerful scope?

I think the scope helps to a point, but greater mag. in warmer weather has it's own problems. All but one of my big game rifles have VXIII 2.5x8, & on good days I can shoot submoa groups. You can do pretty good work out @ 100yds w/ even a 5x scope. Just pick a targt that accomidates your thicker crosshair or lower mag. I use 2" diamonds w/ 1" centers for 100yd shooting w/ 8-9x scopes. the same targetes @ 200 are great for my 4.5x14 varmint rig. For the 1.5x5 on my .404, I use a 4" diamond @ 100yds, it give about the same sight pic. as the 2" using 8-9x.

elkamn,

For various reasons I have returned to using a straight 4x32mm scope after years of using medium variables like you mention. I expected to have difficulty in getting decent groups, but found they remained pretty much the same ie 3/4" to 1" when I did my part. I favour those little orange disks about 1 1/4" in size and find that even on x4 I can quarter them with the cross hair..

Regards,

Pete

I usually shoot at targets with a 1" round bullseye. The crosshairs nearly cover it at 9 power. I can occassionally quarter it to get a fine aiming point, but not always. The diamond target sounds like it would be easier to use. A larger diamond would be much easier to split using the crosshairs. I'll give it a try. Thanks.

I design my own targets (the joy of having access to AutoCAD at work and free time at lunch) and I put a white crosshair in the middle of a 1" black dot. Through expermentation, I get the white cross to the right width so that it is (near) perfectly covered by the crosshairs at 'perfect' aim.

Holding it there is the hard part...it REALLY shows you how much even your heartbeat contributed to wiggle, sandbags and all!

elkhunter,

I've had much better luck w/ higher X when shooting for groups. I like a scope taht has 12-18x on the high end as well as fine cross hairs.

Alot of folks don't like higher power scopes but, I believe it helps a considerable amount in placing a good shot on game. When a deer is out around 200 yards, I crank it down to to max power and zoom in on the vitals. Heck I seldomly go lower than 6X on my brush guns, i find it helpful in "Threading the needle."

I've been slowly upgrading all of my big game rifles to varibles in the 3-12 or 4-16 power range.

Good Luck!

Reloader

I make my own targets. I put multiple black bulls on white paper -- ten in two rows of five on an 18 x 24 sheet for 100 yard work, and five inside a 14 inch square box, one on each corner and one in the middle, on a 30 inch square sheet for 200 yards. The bulls for 100 yards are 1 inch and those for 200 yards are 2.5 inches in diameter. I have templates made for both targets with holes cut for the bulls, so I can lay the template on top of a piece of paper pulled from the end of a roll, cut the paper to fit the outside size, and then fill in the bulls with a black marker.

I find that these are large enough to be seen even with a fixed-power 4X scope, but I like to use variable power scopes of at least 3-9 power because with the scope cranked up to 9X I can see the bullet holes at 200 yards without a spotting scope. It is easy to put the crosshair over a bull of the sizes I make them, so that it is centered on the bull, with the same amount of black in each quadrant of the crosshairs.

quote:

Originally posted by Pete E:
elkamn,

For various reasons I have returned to using a straight 4x32mm scope after years of using medium variables like you mention. I expected to have difficulty in getting decent groups, but found they remained pretty much the same ie 3/4" to 1" when I did my part. I favour those little orange disks about 1 1/4" in size and find that even on x4 I can quarter them with the cross hair..

Regards,

Pete

HI PETE

THE OLD ADAGE HOLDS TRUE. "AIM SMALL, MISS SMALL."

Incredible accuracy can be obtained with low magnification scopes and metallic sights if one remembers that as long as one can find a constant reference for the aiming mark (reticle intersection or top of front sight) on the target, the shots will all fall in the same place +/- your ammo's variability.

A significant portion of the Army Marksmanship Unit's service rifle team uses a GI front sight post in the M16s, and they can clean the 600 yard target with high X counts. That target's aiming black is 6 MOA wide, and the X ring is 1 MOA.

I don't own a rifle that won't consistantly shoot well under an inch. For example" my Savage 112 in .270 WSM shoots my 140 Accubond handload into .25 MOA !!! My A_bolt in .338 Win shoots under .75 MOA. My .300 RUM (Savage) under .5 MOA. And my Rock River 18" Varmint shoots well under .5 MOA. All my shooting for groups is done on a target of my own design, a paper plate !! I make a crosshair on it with a magic marker. With my scope turned to 6x, the crosshair on the scope completely covers the crosshair on the target.I've been doing this for 35 years or so. Seems to work for me.My range is 100 meters.

With low powered scopes, I use a black square and aim at a corner of it for shooting groups. With these targets you can pretty well eliminate the difficulty in putting the crosshairs in the same spot every shot. I'd say the difference between a 4x and 12x for me is less than .2 difference in group size, with a 6x the difference is almost nonexistent. It's not really much different than trying to shoot an iron sighted rifle on a target made for a scope, be lucky to shoot 4 in. groups, but use a black bullseye like a 25 yard pistol target and shoot 1.5-2 in. groups with the same rifle.

I use black GI target pasters (1"X1") as an aiming point rather than bullseyes. You snugggle the crosshair intersection up against the lower right corner of the paster, with just a hairline of white still showing between the intersection of the crosshairs and the paster. This way, you can aim PRECISELY, regardless of the maginification of your scope or the thickness of the crosshairs!

Thusly:

I found some printable targets on the web, and my favorite, for use with a scope, has a 1" diamond in the center w/ heavy horizontal and vertical lines extending from the diamond to the edges of the target. So, basically, you just line up the crosshairs with the line (having made sure you've hung the target as "square" as possible.) I shoot much better groups with these targets than I do with most others.

Having said that, I'm a big fan of magnification, and tend to have higher magnification (although usually variable)scopes on my guns than many would put on the same gun. With a variable I can always dial it down, but generally use the highest magnification when shooting paper.

Yes, all other factors being equal, scope magnification CAN and usually does contribute to smaller groups ( after all, target shooters aren't using fixed 4Xs!), but small groups can still be achieved with low-power scopes.

One of the secrets is target selection. A target that doesn't distract by being too complicated or too "orange", and a well-defined aiming point that allows you to see a bit of light around the center of the crosshairs contributes mightly toward small groups with low-power scopes. Benchrest-type targets don't work well, either, because if the aiming point is too small to see a properly-defined center, that target will sort of force you to guess about where to aim. Guesswork and precision don't work!

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