Any thoughts on this? I leave for a Yukon moose hunt in less then 4 weeks!

Yesterday I went out to shoot my rifle - .300 weatherby. I wanted to check the zero and do some general shooting. My first 3 shot group was 5 inches below my zero point and 3 inches to the left. It was also a very poor group - 3+ inches – these loads shoot 1" to 1.5". I checked the rings and mounts. Nothing appeared to be wrong.

I then shot another group which was slightly higher but still poor. After 20 plus rounds it was zeroed but had an occasional flier that was 3 or 4 inches off... it seemed to shoot better when hot.

Any thoughts?!

Start with the simple things: are the action screws tight?

Is the scope shifting within the rings?

Are the bases tight on the reciever?

After that you can go on to the more arcane issues.

Garrett

glass bed that thing.

Ryan, if this rifle had a good track record previousily with those loads... CHANGE THE SCOPE now and try again. If it doesn't shoot with a known scope, then look to the bedding and lessor issues.

I agree with all that is said above, I had a similar issue with my remmy 270, my handloads that would shoot 3/4 moa would now only shoot about 2.5" but tried some factory win powerpoints and accuracy was a little less than MOA. the only thing I can figure is my reloads had been bouncing around in the truck for 6mos and since the bullets where seated long there could have been an issue

Action screws, rings, mounts are all tight.

The loads have not changed (new brass), and have been sitting under my reloading bench.

The last time I shot the rifle it shot perfectly - that was about a month ago.

Are you taking your time when shooting to let the gun cool down?
How many shots do you take to make a group?

Are you shooting factory ammo if so are you mixing brands within a group?
I had seen this done only by one shooter and only because he didn't know that it mattered.

I shoot a 300 WIN Mag and only shoot 3 shot groups at 100 yrds. I have noticed that if I shoot too many shots to fast together that the gun will get hot and will shoot higher and to the right most of the time.

Hot weather is another factor my rifle will not cool down enough during hot weather to group well.

I hope you find out the problem and the best of luck on your hunting adventure.

Thanks for the comments...

To anwser your questions.

1) These are reloads - new brass, fed 215, imr 7828, 200 grn accubonds. Orginal testing produced 1 - 1.5 inch groups out of a clean barrel.

2) Yes cooling the gun between 3 - 4 shot groups. However, I tested to see what happens when I heat the barrel up and the groups actually shrink!

3) I was shooting on a cool day - 65 - 70 degrees with a light less then 5 mph breeze.

What type of scope do you use? Had a friend that got a broken crosshair, that was barely noticable until he shot. I think it was a Leupy that was replaced free, but it took awhile to figure it out.

It's a Leupold VX-II 2-7x... it's been on the rifle for many years with no problems.

I agree with the fellow who told you to change your scope NOW. A certain top brand of scope is (in)famous for having an adjustment system which breaks after relatively little use. Actual testing of scopes also reveals that virtually all makes have their share which will fail to hold zero.

And, once they've given up the ghost, you normally do NOT see broken crosshairs, failures to track when the knobs are turned, that sort of thing. What you do see is erratic groups, increased flyers (sometimes to the point where about all you get are fliers), and just plain undependable accuracy with a known good barrel and load.

For a real eye-opener on this subject, visit benchrestcentral.com and do a search for something like "scope problems". This subject is extensively well covered there by some of the top shots in this country, including the results of testing done by a firm which builds and sells a "scope-checker".

I really agree with Alberta Canuck, a good friend of mine had the exact same issue with a .270 Weatherby Mag, the Mark V wood stocked version, and it was the SAME scope as you have, he sent it back to Leupold and they said yes it was fried, and replaced it, he had gone to a Zeiss Conquest in the meantime and hasn't looked back. I was with him at the range and he was able to dial things right in after boresighting, it only took about 8 or 9 shots and he was back on zero.

Good Luck--Don

Before changing out the scope. When you are shooting are you removing the sling? Is your sling under the gun resting in between the rest and your rifle? If you are using bags check and make damn sure that your sling studs are not touching your bags. This will interfer with your recoil and cause all sorts of trouble. Try placing your hand under the fore arm while shooting. How many inch pounds of torque are you tightening your action screws to? Did you overtighten and break your bedding?

Thanks for the posts... I have a sneaking suspicion that it is the scope. The rifle was a little squirrelly – at least more then normal - when I was creating this last load.

As for the action screws. I just checked to make sure they where tight - I didn't torque them.

I take the sling off when I bench shoot and place the bags behind the sling stud…

Thanks again for all of the help!

Ryan,

I suggest one more thing before you re-scope. It seems like the simplest thing in the world but it happens so, buy some sweets or barnes cr10 solvent and clean the bore of all the gilding metal from the bullets shot. That will cause that exact problem and, unless your scope is overtightened or been struck or something along those lines, a leupold generally does not move like that. Use the solvent and a patch until the blue no longer shows up on the patch. That could be the total problem. Let us know...later.

Just to clarify,

The bullet gilding metal left in the bore may have accumulated enough that it has begun to cut into the next bullets. This will cause the bullet to warble and not go down the barrel with concentricity. The result is a bullet with a bad vibration and not on point, leaving a wide pattern. The gilding metal will keep building after each bullet, either softer or harder material until you use solvent to remove it all and start over. Try the solvent first, if not, change the scope...

New Scope

Aside from the above mentioned scenarios, of which, the scope being my main suspect, what about Powder lot inconsistency? Which powder are you using?

Before I rescoped I would take OSOKSNIPERs advice and give the barrel a good cleaning. Also, Forgive me for saying this--go buy a box of factory and see if the same thing occurs. You say the gun was getting squirrelly. Pershaps it was your reloads that are going sour. Just for giggles, take an unfired bullet and see if it drops freely into one of your fired cases. If it doesn't let me know.

I had a brand new Leupold Vari-X III on a brand new rifle,I still mutter about all those loads ,the powder bullets and the primers.

It was the scope !!

At least Leupold can be expected to test and send the scope back in time if you do it now. They changed reticles in two of mine and had them back to me in less than a week.

I think the first One-Holer reply is closer to the answer. You could be putting enough pressure on the stock and hence on the barrel to change impact while firing. It's not as if the gun is unknown for a bit of recoil---sooo your holding it good and tight to control the recoil and the guns reacting. Besides you probably don't shoot it a lot and the stock may have dried out or collected moisture which could also add or relieve pressure on the barrel. Use a good bench rest machine and don't over tighten the action screws (snug not over tight)

quote:

Originally posted by 308Sako:
Ryan, if this rifle had a good track record previousily with those loads... CHANGE THE SCOPE now and try again. If it doesn't shoot with a known scope, then look to the bedding and lessor issues.

I agree 100% with this!! Same exact symptoms my Bushnell scope exhibited befor it self destructed on a Texas Whitetail hunt. Get a new, quality scope on there right away!! Don't forget to Loctite your rings and mounts while you're at it. Good luck on the hunt.

quote:

Originally posted by Ryan:
Any thoughts on this? I leave for a Yukon moose hunt in less then 4 weeks!

Yesterday I went out to shoot my rifle - .300 weatherby. I wanted to check the zero and do some general shooting. My first 3 shot group was 5 inches below my zero point and 3 inches to the left. It was also a very poor group - 3+ inches – these loads shoot 1" to 1.5". I checked the rings and mounts. Nothing appeared to be wrong.

I then shot another group which was slightly higher but still poor. After 20 plus rounds it was zeroed but had an occasional flier that was 3 or 4 inches off... it seemed to shoot better when hot.

Any thoughts?!

I had a similar problem a few years ago with my .338WM. I thought the problem was the Leupold scope, but since it was a couple of days before moose season, I was thinking of purchasing another and try that. I was at the local shooting range, now sitting in my truck and thinking what scope I should buy next, and then I decided to open a new gun magazine I had purchased that day. I had no idea how, but I turned a couple of pages and the next article was one on how to clean a rifle to improve accuracy!

I went straight home and ran a couple of swabs wet with copper and powder solvent, followed by wet brushing, followed by more swabs and brushing, until the rifling was clean and shiny. I finished the cleaning with some JB paste. It took me about 40 minutes to clean the rifle. I went back to the range and fired two of my handloaded ammo with 230-grain FS bullets before I looked at the holes on the target, and I got a huge surprise: The two bullet holes were close to each other, not more than 1/2" apart. That's all I needed to know. I grabbed the target for show and tell (I still have it), and two days later, on the opening day, I killed a moose with one shot at 200 yards.

Before you remove the scope to install another, clean the rifle thoroughly, and give it one more try.

smells like a stuffed scope-change it and see

Ryan

I had kinda the same problem in a .270- at times it would shoot well under the inch at 100 then a second time out and following a quick 10 minute cleaning in between it would do no better than 2 inches.

Then I was introduced to all the modern cleaning products including CR10 and spending time with a bore guide and spear point jags, cut size patches and JB, a more thorough cleaning regime paid dividends and a 20 minute clean up each 20 or so shots keeps groups under the inch, and this is with the Barnes TSX.

With calibres in the Weatherby class of rifle and the attendant velocities that accompany them a more rigorous cleaning may well be the key, not that I am suggesting you neglect such a concept!

Good luck with your forthcoming hunt

Thanks for all the posts... A few have mentioned cleaning. I clean my guns thoroughly. I have been through those headaches before and always begin my sessions with clean barrels free of copper and fouling. I shoot 1 or 2 fouling shots before I settle in to the real shooting.

I am taking it to my local smith today at lunch… I am suspecting the scope.

Ryan,
I have noticed in the past that changing magnification on some scopes will cause a shift in the zero that sometimes will not come back when the scope is put back on the origional zero. It may have something to do with your problem.

Ryan seems to kow what he is about. I smell scope. Same thing happened to me. Scope worked great o smnaller rifles, put it on 300 wby, shot great for a while, groups blew up testing reloads, tried differant loads tightened and loosened action screws blamed my eyes, recoil, wind, temp, any thing I could. Tried to adjust scope and it would not adjust unless you slapped it and then it moved across the target. New zeiss solved problem and tightened the group up enough that I think the first scope was going bad for a long time when I tought it was me geting old.
Judge Sharpe

There is plenty of good advice here, but I will relate this one for you. Pull the barrelled action out of the stock and check to see if it is cracked behind the recoil lug recess and possibly also thru the trigger cutout. WBY Mk 5's are glass bedded from the factory, but things can go wrong. I am repairing a friends 300 WBY that had this very problem along with the usual byproduct of shooting "patterns". I put in double crossbolts and milled out the old glass bedding and rebedded it with Acraglass steel bed. Hopefully you have a scope problem that can be quickly solved, but I would check for cracks first. Lee.

Ryan,
You mentioned new brass. Just a thought, did you resize the new brass before you loaded it?

Thanks for all the posts.

I don't think the loads are to blame. I load in lots and loaded 200 rounds in new brass that was resized. I then sighted the rifle in using these loads. So I am very comfortable that it is not these loads. I also have some baseline loads with sierra boattails that shoot sub inch groups, and they are not shooting out of the rifle.

I shot last night and this morning after cleaning the rifle thoroughly again to be sure it wasn't copper fouling. Then I checked all of the screws for the 300th time.

Last night the rifle "grouped" 1 inch high and 6 inches to the left. Then suddenly shifted and shot dead on. Then shot low. This morning the first shot was 4 inches high 7 left, then second shot was 5 high and 8 left, then third shot was 6 high and 9 left. I slapped the gun some and banged to butt first on the ground. It then shot a reasonable group at 5 inches low and 3 inches right. Second group had 2 shots dead on and the last one 6 inches left.

The scope is going to be FedEx’ed this morning and I'll take the gun apart tonight to check for cracks etc. I do have a backup rifle that shoots like a dream but it is a .270 win loaded with 140 grain accubonds. It will work for moose but for griz I am not too sure!

quote:

Originally posted by Ryan:
Last night the rifle "grouped" 1 inch high and 6 inches to the left. Then suddenly shifted and shot dead on. Then shot low. This morning the first shot was 4 inches high 7 left, then second shot was 5 high and 8 left, then third shot was 6 high and 9 left. I slapped the gun some and banged to butt first on the ground. It then shot a reasonable group at 5 inches low and 3 inches right. Second group had 2 shots dead on and the last one 6 inches left.

This REALLY sounds like it is the scope. Are you getting another scope?? You could probably do with a backup, anyway.
- mike