Yesterday it was windy here in Wyoming, not much news in that but since I hadn't been able to go shoot out on the hilltop range for a long time I made the best of it; after all, a fellow shouldn't let all that "condition" practice go by without gaining some expierence.

The rifles of choice were the Ballard in 45/70 and the M1895 Marlin in 40/65.

The M1895 was loaded with the 385 grain SAECO #640. This bullet and case won't feed from the magazine but when single loaded works well. On another thread I address the extra long sight staff on this rifle, suitable for distances of 800+ yards. My distances for the morning's shooting ranged from 412 on out to 875.

The sight also has a full degree of windage adjustment available in either direction and at the longest distances I needed a goodly amount since the wind was 16G25 right from 10 o'clock. Is seems kind of strange to see your barrel pointed off into next week during such shooting, but it does work.

The light Marlin did pretty well for the 80 rounds I had along and when it was used up I got out the 45/70, loaded with Lyman's new design 457132 and 21 grains SR4759. I was getting pretty wind-blown myself by that time so I only fired 15 rounds of 45, but it was amazing how much eaisier the big rifle was to shoot as compared to the 9 pound Marlin. And, the drift was cut by nearly 30% as compared to the 40/65 at 875 yards, making hits on the steel almost simple.

Good evening,
Forrest

Forrest here's the ballistic numbers using 1125 for MV, altitude of 2500 ft, temp 40 degrees with a wind angle of 135 degrees. Gun zero for 875 yds. First set of numbers is for a 16 mph wind-- the second at 25 mph. Couldn't figure out how to import the data and keep the columns lined up. I sub'd FPS for velocity to make interpreting somewhat easier. Do those drift and drop figures seem about right?

Range FPS Impact Drop ToF Energy Drift
0 1125 -1 0 0 1504 0
100 1062 141.65 14.9 0.28 1340 2.05
200 1012 253.44 60.66 0.57 1217 6.45
300 972 331.41 140.24 0.87 1122 13.36
400 939 372.89 256.31 1.18 1047 22.49
500 910 375.45 411.3 1.51 984 33.63
600 884 336.79 607.51 1.84 928 46.7
700 860 254.69 847.16 2.19 879 61.62
800 838 126.98 1132.42 2.54 834 78.32
900 818 -48.44 1465.4 2.9 795 96.76

Range FPS Impact Drop ToF Energy Drift
0 1125 -1 0 0 1504 0
100 1062 141.65 14.9 0.28 1340 3.2
200 1012 253.44 60.66 0.57 1217 10.08
300 972 331.41 140.24 0.87 1122 20.88
400 939 372.89 256.31 1.18 1047 35.14
500 910 375.45 411.3 1.51 984 52.55
600 884 336.79 607.51 1.84 928 72.97
700 860 254.69 847.16 2.19 879 96.28
800 838 126.98 1132.42 2.54 834 122.38
900 818 -48.44 1465.4 2.9 795 151.19

For holding at 875 with that 25 mph wind-- you've only got to hold a little more than 11-12 feet into it...

[ 04-01-2003, 16:15: Message edited by: aladin ]

Aladin,

A: Here's the ballistic numbers using 1125 for MV, altitude of 2500 ft, temp 40 degrees with a wind angle of 135 degrees. Gun zero for 875 yds. First set of numbers is for a 16 mph wind-- the second at 25 mph. Couldn't figure out how to import the data and keep the columns lined up. I sub'd FPS for velocity to make interpreting somewhat easier. Do those drift and drop figures seem about right?

F: OK. I'm here at work and don't have my sight setting tables handy to confirm sight settings, but, right-off some of the numbers do not seem to work out even though my altitude here is 4000 feet and, since it was a warm day the density altitude was running about 5000 feet or so.

The SAECO #640 may not be as good a balistic shape as your calculator is set for.

I'll look at the sight settings for these ranges and confirm when I get home. As I DO recall the offset for wind that I was using better than elevations I can say that for the prevailing wind on Sunday it was on the order of 30 to 40 minutes. This translates to something on the order of 256 to inches or something like +/- 20 or 30 feet. This seems about right to me, having done some shooting in simular conditions before: The shots will hit on the order of 20+ feet off if the sights are left at the normal zero.

I will have to look at my recorded elevations for the rifle when I get home to figure out drop. Right here I could really say how close the numbers are.

The Time-of-Flight seems about right. The specified 2.9 seconds is gives me plenty of time to move over to the spotting scope and see the bullet arrive at the target, hit or miss, although I have never actually timed it.

A: For holding at 875 with that 25 mph wind-- you've only got to hold a little more than 11-12 feet into it.

F: Not mentioned in the post was that I fired the 45/70, loaded with Lyman 457132 at 1250 ft/sec and noted that the drift was reduced to something like 20 to 25 minutes. This difference, plue the additional weight of the rifle made hitting a good deal eaiser.

I'll be back, good afternoon,
Forrest

F: Not mentioned in the post was that I fired the 45/70, loaded with Lyman 457132 at 1250 ft/sec and noted that the drift was reduced to something like 20 to 25 minutes. This difference, plue the additional weight of the rifle made hitting a good deal eaiser.

A: I believe I inputed a BC of around .43 for the Postell, as I think that's the figure Tom/Dutch of TMT Enterprises figured the slug at. I'll check on that.

1250 fps otta 21 grs seems somewhat fast for that chg wt, but my recent lot of '59 was surplus so that could figure for the different speed. Note the 1120 fps figure I used shoots with less wind drift. 20 minutes of drift at 1250 sounds about right.

Aladin,

A: I believe I inputted a BC of around .43 for the Postell, as I think that's the figure Tom/Dutch of TMT Enterprises figured the slug at. I'll check on that..

F: OK, but remember that the 40 caliber SAECO #640 is not technically a Postell design. It looks exactly like a scaled down 65745.

A: 1250 fps otta 21 grs seems somewhat fast for that chg wt, but my recent lot of '59 was surplus so that could figure for the different speed. Note the 1120 fps figure I used shoots with less wind drift. 20 minutes of drift at 1250 sounds about right.

F: The figure was a choreographed number. I do know that 1150 ft/sec will wind up with less drift but I started working with a trade-off between low SD numbers and minimum drift or the best drift numbers I could get considering the definite need for elimination of any high/low problems.

Good afternoon,
Forrest

All my remarks Forrest were to the 21 grs of '59 using the Postells in the 45/70. And your correct in that the Saeco design isn't nearly so flight efficent.

Here's the data using your altitude at 1125 fps.

Range FPS Impact Drop ToF Energy Drift
0 1125 -1 0 0 1504 0
100 1065 139.63 14.87 0.28 1347 3.06
200 1018 249.58 60.41 0.57 1231 9.57
300 979 326.08 139.41 0.87 1139 19.8
400 947 366.59 254.4 1.18 1065 33.36
500 919 368.79 407.69 1.5 1003 49.91
600 893 330.54 601.44 1.83 947 69.31
700 870 249.75 837.72 2.17 899 91.44
800 849 124.42 1118.55 2.52 856 116.22
900 829 -47.42 1445.89 2.88 816 143.55

Now using your MV of 1250.

0 1250 -1 0 0 1856 0
100 1164 123.25 12.23 0.25 1610 3.48
200 1097 221.78 50.17 0.52 1430 11.25
300 1043 291.46 116.97 0.8 1292 23.5
400 1000 329.35 215.55 1.09 1188 39.73
500 964 332.83 348.55 1.4 1104 59.49
600 934 299.45 518.4 1.71 1036 82.42
700 907 227.03 727.3 2.04 977 108.27
800 883 113.43 977.37 2.38 926 136.91
900 861 -43.36 1270.64 2.72 881 168.24

NOTE the wind drift increased by 25 inches but the drop from 875 to 900 yds only decreased by 4 inches..

Your comments per SD's are similar to what I'm experiencing now after nose sizing my bullets to fit as a rider-- changing combustion room and affecting the load's uniformity.

Aladin,

Here are the numbers, in degrees and minutes for the 40/65 WCF, SAECO 640 and 19 grains SR4759. I rechecked the chronographed speed and found it to be right at 1180 ft/sec

Distance Elevation

395 1 20'
440 1 29'
470 1 30'
503 1 38'
552 1 45'
587 1 51'
606 1 56'
648 2 06'
670 2 09'
834 2 46'

I'll go look up the 45/70 later. right now i have to go.

Good morning,
Forrest

Aladin,

I have noted that the 40/65 numbers (above) should not be considered as beginning with the sight set "zero" for 100 yards. The 100 yard zero is more like 45 minutes, the sight staff not being made with anything but sufficent length in mind: Zero falling where ever it happened to fall.

In further number crunching you may consider that the new Lyman 457132 really isn't a true "Postell" design. At least not in my viewpoint. It sure doesn't look anything like their older, better Postel mold and performance follows design..

I shoots lots of a true Postell in the 44/63 Ballard (as noted in the IGC thread). This bullet is a custom mold by David Mos, casting at 470 grains in my alloy. I load it to the typical 1250 ft/sec and here are the sight settings for elevation for your consideration:

Again, the sight does not begin at "zero" for anything in particular. The 100 yard distance is 0.500 (inches as units here).

Distance Elevation Name

100 0.500
200
381 0.800 Sm diamond
444 0.880 Bear
470 0.920 Tiny Sq
503 0.970 Small Sq
552 1.030 Buffalo
587 1.110 Big Diamond
606 1.140 Bull
648 1.200 Big Chicken
670 1.230 Big Round
834 1.540 Big Square
1000 1.820 Water Bar

The 44/63 typically produces almost the exact same drift as the 45/70s used by other shooters in their clunky old Sharps replica rifles. these fellows shoot mainly SAECO 65745 or 65765s over 27 grains 5744.

I have tried this load but it shoots faster and not as well as 4759 in my rifle.

Good morning,
Forrest

Forrest I shot my 03 at 600 yesterday using a load of 20 grs of Blue Dot making 1940's with hard LBT 170 spitzers. My target was a one gallon milk jug sitting center in the backstop which in 20 rds wasn't violated... Yet I did group pretty good albeit bench shooten as I was trying to get some idea of what this combo could do. On the gun's original sight staff I was using 11, which I assume is 1100 yds. Combination of wind and midland spotting kept me about 2-4 minutes left of the goal, yet I managed several very near misses. I shoulda just put the windage on starting out.. will next effort.

Thing is-- this was really fun, alot of interest and appeal for me. That milk jug is around a 1.5 moa target and next time I'll cut a white bullseye for the target, probably 18-24 inches for the practice.

That 20 grs load of BD is a max plus I think if Lyman techs were calling the numbers, so anyone who uses such is doing so with this knowledge. I haven't seen any problems with the loading till the chg wt is much higher, and then these shotgun fuels get position sensitive and will exhibit pressure spikes. Yet that 20 gr'r will go MOA in my Marlin sporter-- all things working. Dunno about the 03 but it appears it holding up well there too. Fed 210 primed BTW.

Aladin,

A: I shot my 03 at 600 yesterday using a load of 20 grs of Blue Dot..

F: I have a M1903, built in 1921, all original, that I have used for many things since I bought it at the age of 18.

I have loaded this rifle with 311284 over 33 grains 4198 and fired it right alongside the fellows with their clunky old Sharps rifles at long range.

This is not really a "traditional" rifle, as they say, but it is fun! And it always makes everyone take a certain notice about whats going on nearby!

My load is really too fast for the best "condition" shooting but it is reliable and semi-fast.

In this shooting I use the old as-issued staff, as you're doing. I have the various distance settings recorded for the load in my range book. It repeats exactly and gets down to the targets ever so more quickly than the 45s.

The only (and unfixable) handicap in this shooting is the short sight radius, otherwise I'm certain the outfit would be competitive at Quigley or any other long range iron sight compition.

The milk-jug at 600 is simular to our Bull's scrotum at 606: Pretty hard to see through iron sights, but in our case the Bull's body provides good sight picture even when the nuts begin to fade and get fuzzy. It is quite possible to get hits!

Good afternoon,
Forrest

Forrest how did you guys come up with those distances to your targets??

I hope to get a 311644 soon and recut to a spitzer of around 210 grs... then the ol' 03 will make an easy 1000.

Yet I do have a 311644 cavity recut to a spitzer but in a PB mold. I should try to slow that down to 1250 or so and have a go at 600.. This bullet shoots very good in the Marlin at 1500 fps using Blue Dot-- and I have lobbed in down to the 6 berm using a holdover with decent results.

[ 04-03-2003, 04:13: Message edited by: aladin ]

Aladin,

A: How did you guys come up with those d8istances to your targets??

F: We did not want our targets to be at "even" distances very much, it being more interesting to work with unusual numbers. Also, there is a certain ideal placement for at least some of these targets as concerns the firing line and the hillsides the targets are set on.

The 552 yard 1/3 size Buffalo is placed at 500 meters. I use him to set sights when i plan on shooting paper at the 500m berm on the Rifle Silhouette course.

A: I hope to get a 311644 soon and recut to a spitzer of around 210 grs... then the ol' 03 will make an easy 1000.

F: I'm back to the loading/computer room and the M1903 numbers are at hand. The setting for 1000 yards with the 311284 and (double checked) 31 grains IMR4198 is 1440.

I've never needed to look much further than the 311284 for the 30'06 in long range shooting so you've the advantage as you refer to 311644; I've never fired one.

I'm no great admirerer of spitzer design cast bullets although I've had some molds in 30, 40 and even 44 caliber do good work. Call me a "traditionalist" or an old man; I like the round nose bullets in lead alloy best.

Since the small-bore 30 doesn't qualify for long range match shooting I'm not loading it for minimum wind drift or worried about it if I do encounter tough-to-dope wind on the firing line: I shoot it strictly for fun and to raise the typical 45/70 shooter's eye brows when my shot arrives at the target in half the ToF as his does..

Good evening,
Forrest

F:I'm no great admirerer of spitzer design cast bullets although I've had some molds in 30, 40 and even 44 caliber do good work. Call me a "traditionalist" or an old man; I like the round nose bullets in lead alloy best.

What designs to you have in 30 cal that are spitzer? Have a 311365 by chance?

Aladin,

A: What designs to you have in 30 cal that are spitzer? Have a 311365 by chance?

F: All I have is an old Rapine tool. I think it is their number 311175GC. It was sent to me to evaluate for TFS a long time ago and then mine to keep. It does OK, but nothing amazing or interesting enough for me to even have casted a bullet with it for at least ten years. Would you like me to send it to you?

Good morning,
Forrest

I`ve had very good medium range shooting with the 2 Lee spitzer`s designed for the 7.62x39,they engrave right to the ogive.they only weigh 155-160gr (ww + lino)so are wind sensitive,but very accurate for 2-300 yds,I use the old 12gr red dot load I was told about years ago in 30-06.never tried any other load with this bullet as it shoots better than I can hold.I don`t like too many lee products and have broken almost everything but the bullet moulds from them.jmho

Aladin,

A: Sure I'll give it a whirl. Does it have any bore ride section?

F: OK. Lets exchange addresses. My email is FAsmus@yahoo.com and we'll take it from there.

No bore-rider on this bullet besides the radius coming into the full diameter portion.

Good afternoon,
Forrest

This last Sunday I headed up the hilltop range to do some shooting at long range. The wind had come up the previous afternoon and continued blowing all night, remaining about 15 - 18 mph in the morning when I headed up there. It was cool enough to wear four layers of clothing and a good tight hat, shooting hand bare, cross-stick hand with a glove on.

I was the first fellow on the line which was good since I wanted to get sight settings for all distances from the regular firing line with the new sight on the new Stevens 44 1/2. When the other fellows came along I knew they would want to go behind the range building for shelter.. Sure; I was looking forward to getting out of the main force of the wind too but I needed those numbers.

With that in mind I pulled my International Harvester up on the firing line, hunkered down behind the right front wheel and set up. Things went well: I got numbers for all distances except for three before anyone else came along. Then, they helped get the remaining settings and we all retired behind the building.

From behind the building our shooting went well. After all, a person doesn't want to let all that wind go by without getting in some shooting.

We all agreed that we'd stay on the 834 yard target, which became 873 with the firing line moved to the protected site. This is a 4 X 4 foot steel rectangle set on the hillside.

My 44/63 on the Stevens 44 1/2 was out there for the very first time and 873 yards was the furthest distance I had used it for. I was glad I had begun shooting it at progressively longer distances, beginning when I worked up the load at 100, then setting the sights at progressively longer distances just before moving to the protected firing line. The gradual progression of distances has prevented the rifle from getting "barrel strain" which is sometimes encountered if a shooter takes his rifle out and begins shooting at extended ranges without considering that the rifle needs to be accustomed to long range shooting before it will be able to perform at its best.

In some instances it has been known that a rifle never really recovers from barrel strain if the shooter fails to recognize it and immediately reduce the distance and work up slowly and carefully over several weeks, thus returning the rifle to good health.

Good afternoon,
Forrest

Forrest one of the guys on MSN posted about there being fps zones where the wind drift was less. This I don't see by using the ballistic calculator this eve. Only time the wind drift gets better is when the bullet is/goes to subsonic flight. What do you think?

Was out shooten the 03 at 600 again today. Found my zero's for the load I'm using and was surprised to find the 100 zero at almost the 500 setting on the staff and the 600 only at 1100. And the 600 'Z' might be a bit high too.

Load is 20.5 grs of Blue Dot with 170 hard LBT spitzers seated fairly hard into the lands.

Ballistic Calculator

[ 04-11-2003, 06:35: Message edited by: aladin ]

Aladin,

A: One of the guys on MSN posted about there being fps zones where the wind drift was less. This I don't see by using the ballistic calculator this eve. Only time the wind drift gets better is when the bullet is/goes to subsonic flight. What do you think?

F: I think the calculator is right. The simple way for me to think about it is to keep in mind that unless I'm able to keep the velocity well above the speed of sound, say over 1600 ft/sec until the target is reached I'm better off to keep M/V as close to the speed of sound as I can so that the bullets will be sub-sonic by the 100 or at worst 200 yard distance.

I have found it interesting that when a microphone is placed at the target and a radio receiver at the firing line in order to hear hits more positively you can really tell things about the shooters on the line at the time. (Yourself included!) When the good loads/shooters fire you'll hear the rifle go off over the radio before the impact of the bullet on the steel.

Good evening,
Forrest

Aladin,

A: Was out shooten the 03 at 600 again today. Found my zero's for the load I'm using and was surprised to find the 100 zero at almost the 500 setting on the staff and the 600 only at 1100. And the 600 'Z' might be a bit high too.

F: I just looked at my 30'06 sight card. My load of 31 grains IMR 4198 with the Lyman 311284 prints at 450 for the 100 yard zero and 1050 for the 606 yard Bull. Nothing like a nice M1903 to shoot for fun!

Good evening,
Forrest

Load is 20.5 grs of Blue Dot with 170 hard LBT spitzers seated fairly hard into the lands.

Ballistic Calculator[/QB][/QUOTE]

Aladin,

You have a PM..

F

More shooting today, this time with the 44/63 Ballard on the Stevens 44 1/2

Some history is that the rifle very recently reached completion. I tested some known loads at short range and then moved on out to the Hilltop Range and aquired sight settings for all the distances we have available.

The day this initial sight setting was done it was cool, verging on downright cold: I had to wear a good tight cap, four layers of clothing and had to keep the glove on my cross-stick hand while the shooting hand suffered a bit but didn't actually freeze up in the cold: It was about 40 degrees in a 16 to 20 knot wind. In anycase, I got elevation numbers for the rifle and my standard load.

Today, shooting from the same firing point, same load, same rifle but with the temperature running around 78 degrees I noted the sight settings no longer matched the distances very well.

Naturally the longer the range, the bigger the discrepency. I'll only mention the 834 yard distance as an example.

My number written down on the 40 degree day for this target is 3 degrees 48'. Today I had to come down to 3 degrees 36' for zero: A change of 10'!

At the 834 yard distance this 10 minute change amounts to nearly 90 inches, or 7 1/2 feet high.

I submit this change is due to the change in what we pilots refer to as Density Altitude. That is to say: Pressure Altitude adjusted for non-standard temperature.

"Standard" temperature for our rifle range, at 4000 feet MSL is 41 degrees, or about the same as when I wrote down the numbers. Today, with the Density Altitude computed on my good old E6B flight computer at 5900 feet the difference in sight settings make more sence!

This DA change has been noted in the past of course, (there being nothing new under the sun) but for our use on the firing line I will note that at matches like Quigley, where sight settings are aquired in the cool of the morning and used all day as things heat up a man can find himself well off the iron high even with the utmost care to his sight settings.

I have a set of numbers for various density altitudes so I may have a fighting chance to figure out a setting for my sights as the temperature changes during the course of a day's shooting.

Even a change of only a few hundred feet DA is enough to make a difference at longer ranges: I've seen the day when things were warming up quickly that sights had to be adjusted down just during a relay.

Good afternoon,
Forrest

HOWDY WELL SINCE I RECIEVED THE PAUL JONES 553GN MOULD IM HITTING MORE UP ON THE HILL. DONT KNOW ENOUGH YET TO FIGURE DENSITY ALLTITUDE BUT HAVE A GOOD IDEA ON THE WIND. THE GUN DOES KICK CONSIDERABLY MORE THAN IT DID WITH THE 480GN SAECO BULLETS. I CHRONOED THE PAUL JONES 553GNS AT 1350 FPS WITH 27 GNS OF XMP 5744 AND A FED 215 PRIMER SO IM GOING TO BACK OFF TO ABOUT 25.5 AND SEE HOW THAT WORKS, STILL HAVE ABOUT HALF OF MY REAR SIGHT LEFT OUT TO 834YDS, WHEN I DO GET A HIT THERE IS NO DOUBT. ALSO SINCE I GOT THE ADJUSTABLE FRONT IM ABLE TO SHOOT WITHOUT KENTUCKY WINDAGE IN 25 + WIND. STILL NEED A BETTER REAR SIGHT AND A BETTER APERETURE. GLH

Gary,

G: I CHRONOED THE PAUL JONES 553GNS AT 1350 FPS WITH 27 GNS OF XMP 5744 AND A FED 215 PRIMER SO IM GOING TO BACK OFF TO ABOUT 25.5 AND SEE HOW THAT WORKS..

F: That 1350 ft/sec is on the fast side of good. let me know how the reduced level works out both for speeds and accuarcy.

By the way, when a fellow uses all caps it comes across as SHOUTING when used on-line.. Just a bit of protocall you might say..

Good morning,
Forrest