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Greetings all, Been out playing around with my molds again and did a small test batch of Lee 170grn RN-GC slugs for my sporterized 7.62x54R rifle. Tried a small batch loaded with IMR-4227 with good initial results. Point of aim was consistent at 100yds +/- no leading problems, est velocity was 16-170000 fps.( Haven't chronographed any yet) I am hoping to eventually reach 2000 fps if my accuracy doesn't start to fall off. I have a .308 barrel on this rifle with the slugs sized to .309 with #2 Lyman hardcast lead. None of my data in my limited library of manuals shows me any loads that look promising to test beyond Unique and IMR-4227 for light loaded ammo with a lead slug. Does anyone out there have any experience with this combo - or can anyone recommend a source for data? Thanks in advance! Eric | ||
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Eric could you do a case volume comparison between your case and the 308 case and adjust from there? Methinks the 308 is slightly more capacity, hence a reduction of at least a percentage equal to the volume reduction and a few points just to be safe. Starting 308 loads should be ok for pressure you'd think. Alliant 7, 4895 or H 4198E should make 2000 fps w/o pressure problems. Suggest trying the bullets unsized also with the added speed provided they chamber safely. Lyman #2 was considered a harder alloy in days past but isn't really hard compared to what heat treated ww alloy produces. But if it works for you with added speed so much the better. Yet it sounds like you've got things under control... Good Luck. Do you have a copy of the Lyman Cast manual 3rd Edition BTW? Tons of 308 data to extropolate from. | |||
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... I have done a little experimenting with the Lyman 173gr flatnosed bullet. I tried a load using WW 231... using S&B brass, and WLR primers, I loaded 11.0gr of 231.. no fillers, didn't want the hassle. I seated these to the groove below the crimp groove, in order to get it closer to the lands... overall length was 2.71"... my average velocity for 10 shots was 1350fps, with an extreme spread of 17fps. These were fired from my M-N carbine, a Romanian version. I got nice round groups of about 1 1/2 to 2" at 50yds with the open sights and my 48yr old eyes. This was a very pleasant load to shoot, with almost no recoil. I have some more loaded up to 12.0gr, but haven't had the chance to try them yet. For a slightly warmer load, I loaded 23.0gr of 2400 powder, same cases and primer. Velocities were averaging 1850fps with an extreme spread of 27fps. Groups at 50yds were consistent at 1 1/2". I have also cast some 200gr roundnose from the 314299 mold. This one, being a .314 bullet, dictates that I outside neck turn at least half of my brass. I haven't gotten to do a lot of testing with it yet, but have tried a few using 45.0gr of IMR 4350. These averaged 2090fps, and the first 4 shots were all touching in a sort of 4-leaf-clover fashion. The next 6 shots opened the group up to about 1 1/2". I'm beginning to think 1 1/2" might be my personal best at 50yds... Hope this helps... this inexpensive little carbine is impressing me with its accuracy so far. And you also have the option of going full bore jacketed if you wish, and you have a cartridge that is somewhere between the .308 and the .30-06 in power.... no flies on that at all. | |||
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After mulling over my manuals again I think I'm going to try a different powder all together. Right now I am to decide on Reloader 7 or IMR4350. Decisions....... Thanks for the input! Eric | |||
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IMR 4350 is a slower powder than I would be willing to use for this application. I have no experience with Reloder 7. IMHO, the faster rifle powders are the way to go. IMR 3031 and either 4895 are the old standbys. AA 5744 is as fast as I would go, but it should do very well for your application. H-322 is another likely choice. I've used a fair amount of all of these with cast bullets in .308 Wins. As an earlier poster noted,for cast bullets in the 1800 to 2000 fps range with rifle powders, .308 Win data gives a good guide to what to use in 7.62 x 54 R. (Any of the medium case size roughly .30 cal military cartridges for that matter.) One of the nice things about cast bullets at sane velocities with rifle powder is that pressure is not likely to be a problem. We're shooting what amounts to substantially reduced loads with cast bullets instead of jacketed which leaves room for some slop. | |||
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"IMR 4350 is a slower powder than I would be willing to use for this application" I am wondering why? Cases full of slower numbers shoot pretty good usually-- lower pressures and often very good accuracy. If the rationale is SEE-- that same applies to partial case loads of the medium speed powders. Guns have come apart shooten 4895 reduced too far albeit with jacketed slugs... But the idea is a full case of slow powder, a speed not capable of excess pressures at 100% loading density. | |||
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Ok...... So then is IMR-4350 not a good idea???? I was thinking the same as what was mentioned - full case of a slower powder for moderatre velocities and pressure. My Lee Manual lists 7.62x54R data (reduced loads) for a 180 grn jacketed bullet (mine weigh 178 with GC and lube) - IMR-4350 starting charge at 44.1 grns - max at 46.0 grns with a max velocity of 2365 fps. Assuming the manual tested with a full length barrel 24"+/-, and as stated reduced loads from a near same sized cartridge then these loads should be really mild compared to my Lyman manual (50.0 - 55.0grns with 2443 to 2666fps). The max velocity is in the zone I am trying to reach - 2000 fps +/- (I have a 20"barrel on my rifle - so shave a couple hundred fps off). Am I setting myself up here for failure assuming I can substitute a lead slug in-place of a jacketed of nearly the same weight with reduced loads????? I have not yet loaded any of these test loads up - as I have never substituted bullets with reduced loads before. The last thing I want to do is scatter a gun on a whim test! Any help you guys could provide on the safety of my thinking would be appreciated. Thanks Eric ![[Confused]](images/icons/confused.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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Eric, I sometimes use Lyman #311291 in my 7.62 x 54R with 22-23gr. AA XMP 5744 or 24gr. H/IMR 4198. Either will give you ~1,750fps and less than 2 moa accuracy in my rifle. Although I've never tried IMR 4350, 48gr. WC 860 (milsurp) does just as well. Hope this helps. | |||
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"Am I setting myself up here for failure assuming I can substitute a lead slug in-place of a jacketed of nearly the same weight with reduced loads?????" No. But... you need to fill in a lotta blanks. Eric one of my pet loads in former times for my Hart barreled 06 was 54 grs of Allaint 19 [twin to 4350 for speed] making 2450 with a 200 gr 311644. Next loading was with Alliant 22-- slower yet... --Your barrel determines what's possible, correctly loaded. --running a strong enough bearing surface to hold the rifling is need with speed. Means harder and oversized usually.. --preshot alignment is the key, the lead slug doesn't have the strength to overcome misalignement Dive in and find out what works. | |||
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Ok.... I am feeling a smidge better now about my test idea. What I am going to do is set the rifle up with a minimum charge of IMR-4350 (out of my Lee Manual) with a standard CCI Lg Rifle primer. Shoot one round from a safe position - (Old tire and a string and about 25 ft of distance) then check for signs of excessive pressure and or too minimal pressure. If things work well - then I will do another round across the Chrono and see if my thoughts are all wet or if I am reasonably near a moderate velocity. I like cases nearly full of powder - so if IMR-4350 doesn't work with the accuracy and target velocity then I will move on to other powders. The metal is ready to pour tomorrow - I just finished mixing a batch of Linotype in ingots for this trial. I'll post again tomorrow evening and let you guys know what happened after the first shot! Thanks Eric ![[Wink]](images/icons/wink.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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I think the 308 has slightly less case capacity. The base is smaller, the other measurements are almost the same. I think you could shoot 307 winchester in a pinch. which model is yours that has a .308 barrel? both of mine are larger. M-44's, 4 groove, with one set of grooves larger than the other on both guns. | |||
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Eric the tire idea etc is pointless. If a caseful of slow fuel was that marginal for safety I'd be pushing daisies long ago. Me and alot of other casters... SEE-- or Secondary Explosion Effect, is a event producing extreme high pressures using a slower fuel loaded well UNDER max loading densities, something on the order of less than 75% of case capacity. And this is associated with jacketed slugs-- as I've not heard of this with cast. Load your case near full avoiding much if any air space and you'll be fine. | |||
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Lemme clarify. I said nothing about SEE. I don't use slow powders for cast bullets loads in the 1700-2000 fps range for two reasons. The first and most important is that I am cheap. I ain't gonna use 40 grains of powder to do what I can do as well with 30 grains of another powder, particularly when 4350 is running $18 a pound and I have fast powders I bought for $2 a pound. Second is burning characteristics. The few times I have tried slow powders for moderate cast bullet loads, I have gotten dirty burns and lots of unburned powder. I can count on the fast powders to light off easy and burn clean. | |||
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I'll check to the charge cost. But alot of guys buy that slow stuff very reasonable too. I've run 7828 at just over 2000 fps with MOA accuracy otta 06's albeit some kernels in the bore. I'd guestimate CUP in the 32,000 area and find with the first line slow powders such as 7828, Alliant 19 and 22 fouling isn't a problem. Surplus powder I dunno about fouling. Yet I can about duplicate that accuracy and get low ES's with 20 grs of Blue Dot, and at 350 shots to the lb that's still only a nickel a shot for the powder. I can live with that for plinking.. [ 05-10-2003, 23:02: Message edited by: aladin ] | |||
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Eric Julsrud, The tire idea isn't a good one where SEE may be involved. SEE doesn't always show up until you least expect it. I use 30.06 load data for my 7.62x54R loads. Start low and work up. I haven't had any problems using the 30.06 data. Orygun | |||
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Alright - raining today so I decided not to shoot. But after reading all of these posts from you guys I decided to move away from IMR-4350 and on to another powder - maybe IMR-4198. In all I am trying to consolidate powders down to a reasonable amount. It's beginning to make me mighty nervous having a locker full of so many differnt kinds of powder. I want a clean shooting round - and yep IMR-4350 is mighty slow - (and I have oodles of it). So IMR-4198 or IMR-3031 is the next logical move in my selection of handy powders. I would stick with IMR-4227 or Unique but the velocity just isn't there. In all I will probably be back there anyway! I didn't realize that substituting '06 data was ok do do....starting at minimum of course. This opens up all sorts of interesting ideas for me. I can imagine that near max loads with not be possible though for the 7.62x54R from that data - smaller case, correct? The end goal is a round this rifle can digest well at a reasonable price with good hunting application. Surplus ammo is out of the question for this rifle! - high pressure is most evident on the one round I did fire of the surplus stuff.... Now - it is time to cast, perfect for a rainy day activity. Thanks for the help - I'll post again with some results Eric | |||
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Eric, what milsurp ammo did you use that showed high pressure. What made you think it was high pressure. The older reloading books said to use 30.06 data. I being of sorta sound mind always starts low and works my way up on loads. Pl3ease post your results. Orygun | |||
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Try Steve's Reloading Pages. http://stevespages.com/310_2_165.html He has a scad of data for 7.62x54R. Problem is that he does not list velocities. I would hope that a starting load for a jacketed bullet would be down in the cast bullet velocity range, but don't know. [ 05-12-2003, 09:22: Message edited by: Leftoverdj ] | |||
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I was using silver-tip "sniper" ammo that I picked up a couple of years ago for my Dragonov. I believe I picked it up from an advertisement from Shotgun News - I could dig for the name of the company if it is important. It is non-corrosive stuff - 174grn FMJBT - steel case, Berdan primed. I fired one round and the case failed to extract - I tapped the case out with a cleaning rod - Just dropped a length down the muzzle and it popped out. The primer was completely "coned" around the firing pin and the back of the case was black from blow-by from the primer. My previous jacketed reloads (.308) on this rifle never had any problems with pressure - cases extracted fine, no adverse stretching, neck splitting, case head separation, etc. The rifle has a true .30 cal bbl - and is not a suplus set-up. This rifle was re-worked before I acquired it - custom maple stock, trigger, turned bolt, sporter weight contoured bbl (not sure of manufacturer), scope, etc. My obvious assumption is the bullet diameter of the surplus ammo caused the pressure - but a check of a pulled slug indicates it is between .308/.309 by my mic. So....then I say the rounds are a just too much this gun!? When I fire these surplus rounds thru my Dragonov and my other M-44 they run just fine with no problems. So rather than concentrate on jacketed ammo - I want a good cast slug that runs good in this rifle. It's a tack-driver - so why wear the bbl out running heavy loads? Thats my thinking anyway. Not to mention my wife loves shooting it and doesn't appreciate a healthy headache or concusion from the blast from that short 20"bbl! But anyway - I wish the gunsmith that did the work on this rifle was still alive...he did good work - it's hard to tell it once was a military surplus rifle at first glance. Eric | |||
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quote:Is the surplus ammo crimped? Could the age of the ammo result in a bond [forgot the DE-tales, loaded reloads sometimes do this with time] forming between the case neck and the bullet making bullet pull/release very difficult? Does the OAL of the rd allow the bullet to jam into the rifling-- raising pressures?? JFWIW etc. | |||
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Eric Julsrud, "When I fire these surplus rounds thru my Dragonov and my other M-44 they run just fine with no problems." Since this is a custom rifle I think it, more than the ammo is your problem. You say the ammo shoots fine in your other 7.62x54R rifles and that says it probably is OK. I think you'll find your other rifles run .312-.316 bore size. Most of the 7.62x54R surplus ammo runs .311-.312. I would be looking at more than one bullet in the ammo you have. Hope this helps. | |||
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Yes my other two are a larger bore size - the Dragonov is a .309 and the M-44 is a .311 - at least by my mic and a soft lead slug. I have a drawer full of these pulled slugs from the surplus stuff - (cheap disposable cases for my semi-auto for hunting). Anyway - they average .308/.309 by my calipers, this was my first thought for the problem - I still think it is very likely the main problem. Just because I checked 10 or so slugs doesn't mean they all fall into that realm of size. But rather than tempt fate - and my face - I decided to limit the loads for this rifle to cast slugs. As of now - I scared up some data for IMR-4198 and a 180grn bullet. 29.7 grns min to 33.1 grns max. This is old Lee data from a set of Lee loading dies. Max velocity listed is 2232fps - compared to my Lyman data - this is optimum for velocity. 20 are loaded and ready to test - Now I need a weather cooperative day! Eric | |||
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Forgot to add - I checked to see if the rifling was marking the bullet on the surplus ammo - and I could see nothing. Chambered smoothly with no difficulty - as far as crimped, yes with sealer at the crimp. No clue on the date of manufacture. Anyway - I chambered 10 rnds and extracted looking for any markings. Maybe a fluke? Maybe not? - since this thing is no longer surplus and has been re-worked; I am quite sure the tolerances are not the same. So, reloads for me fit my intended use of the rifle, moderate loads that shoot well. I'll just chalk one scary lesson of high pressure up on my learning chalkboard! Eric | |||
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Finally fired a few rounds! 30 grns IMR-4198 seemed to work best for accuracy. I still need to work on my alloy mix though - try to get something that will expand when it hits an animal without sacrificing accuracy. No signs of high pressure or bad leading problems - just a nice pleasant load. Thanks for the help and input from all..... Now I need to shift my attention to a French MAS 49/56 in .308 with cast slugs.....hmmmm. Thanks again Eric | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Cast Bullets 7.62x54R cast 178grn RN-GC load data needed?
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