Anyone shooting cast bullets outta their 404? I have some hard, gas checked 380 grainers. Anyone got a starting load?

ACR, pard;

As noted a few days back, I have a new mould for my .404, namely the NEI 421-390GC.

At this moment there are over 100 rounds of assorted loadings with this bullet sitting on my bench at home, and tomorrow is a day off. I expect to fire (and chronograph) the various loads in the morning, before the day heats up too badly.

I'll try to post some results tomorrow evening. The loads are mostly fairly-light for openers, but will give us a few indications, anyway.

Bren Mk1,

What sort of velocity are you trying to get? I am hoping to run these between 2150 and 2250 fps so I can use them for less expensive practice bullets that duplicate the jacketed load velocity. The gentleman at Beartooth Bullets assures me these velocities are attainable without leading the heck outta the barrel....we shall see. I have very little experience with cast bullets in rifles. I shot some 500 grainers through my 470 NE at 1650 fps and they leaded the barrels badly. They weren't gas checked and were only cast to BHN 16.

Andy,
There is no magic velocity where cast bullets will or will not lead the barrel. There are many variables, not the least of which is the barrel, chamber, and throat. Lead fouling is usually caused by hot gases leaking past the bullet, which in turn can be caused by many things -- bullet too small, throat too big, etc..

The 16 BHN bullet you mentioned should have been quite adequate for 1650 fps, but any cast bullet will foul if it fails to form a good gas seal.

Dangerous game rifles commonly have long oversize throats which are not ideal for cast bullets. They also tend to have fast twists, intended to stablilize heavy jacketed slugs. The fast twists are not ideal for cast, as discussed on other threads. Still, you may be able to find acceptable results. 2200 fps is ambitious, though, for someone new to the game.

You are on the right track by trying a gas check. I'd try to seat the bullet so that it lightly engraves the rifling, if that is even possible.

Sorry, I don't have any experience with or loads for the 404.

popenmann,

I agree 2200 fps w/o leading may be ambitious. Hopefully the lapped Krieger barrel will be smooth enough to help keep leading down. I will make haste slowly in load devel. Still hafta find a starting place if anyone might have a suggestion! Thanks. Wheresbout in Idaho are you? I lived in Cd'A for nearly 3 years in the early 90's.

Bullet fit is certainly important, and an undersized cast bullet can be just about useless.

My .404 has a groove diameter of .4185", whereas most .404s apparently are nominally about .423" in groove diameter. My NEI 421-390 bullets would NOT work well in a .423" bore, because they cast at only .421"....'way too small for .423" barrels, but ideal for my rifle's barrel.

There are other mould designs which will work, however.

As to the "leading" issue, it's not the bugbear that many people believe. If the bullet is fat enough to fill the bore, and well-lubed with a GOOD bullet lubricant, and just reasonably hard (such as wheelweight alloy) it will work.

My .416 Rigby is a Ruger #1, and it drives the 365-grain RCBS-350 bullet at OVER 2600 fps with good accuracy and no leading of any note. I also had some success in the Rigby with pure lead bullets at 2000 fps, also without leading difficulty. Most of my shooting with this rifle now uses the RCBS bullet at about 2100 fps, which is no strain on anything, including the shooter.

The bullet should be at least a thousandth or two larger than the groove diameter, which means you really should slug the barrel to find out what you're dealing with.

Since my .404 bullet is a bit heavier than those you have, any safe load I come up with should be equally safe in your rifle.

ACR;

If you want to read about the first outing with this NEI bullet in my .404, go to www.cb.gunloads.com and use the search function in the toolbar near the top of each page. Use the terms ".404 jeffery " and you'll find the thread about "biting the bullet". The first trials used XMP 5744, and the loads and velocities are in that thread.

BruceB,

Why did you stop with the xmp5744? Were you getting pressure signs? I have about 6 lbs of that stuff and would LOVE to use it up! My 404 is a custom job on a CZ550 action and it weighs 10.5 lbs scoped w/ Leupy 3x.

ACR;

I stopped at that point simply because I was treading unknown ground. I based the starting load on my experiences with 5744 in the .416 Rigby, and you'll note that in the discussion, we mentioned the symmetry of the speed increases as the charge went up. One of the future projects will involve more loads with 5744.
That was the very first series of loads with the new bullet, and it always pays to tread cautiously.

5744 has worked quite well for me in a number of cartridges, but so far I find it's at its best (in MY guns) in larger bores. I've used it in some cast-bullet loads in .338 Magnum, and in a lot of .404, .416 Rigby, .45-70 and .50-2.5" Sharps' recipes.

Tomorrow's .404 loads will use 2400 and H4895, again just looking for indications of good performance and accuracy. Upcoming powder candidates will be 4198, 3031, Re-7 and whatever else looks interesting. The vast majority of the loads will use a dacron tuft over the powder, which usually gives better burning consistency, and often better accuracy as well.

Gonna be HOT here tomorrow, so I'll try to get out early before it heats up.

I've posted today's .404 shooting results at the "Cast Boolits" site...too much typing to do it there AND here!

It's a new thread, called ".404 Jeffery and the NEI 421-390GC", and it's on the Cast Boolits forum.

The new bullet seems to be working well at this early point in time.

BruceB,

Well, it looks like you had a good time today! The with and without dacron loads were especially interesting. I'm still gonna try the xmp5744 and try to get to ~2150fps or so. Even if I can only get to ~2000 fps as you did, it will make a good practice round. I've got some Beartooth Bullets I'm anxious to try....mebbe I'll be able to do some testing next weekend...got a scuba trip this weekend.

Hey, Andy;

By next weekend I might have the answer about XMP5744 and 2100 fps in our .404 rifles. In the .416 Rigby, I was quite a ways from any excess-pressure troubles at 2100-plus, using 5744 and dacron. I suspect the same will apply to the .404, and I'm eager to find out. Watch this space....

Did you notice how the extreme spread etc got better and better as 4895 got closer to its accustomed burning pressures? I think this is where a chronograph really pays for its keep, when I'm watching for sudden surges in velocity, or LACK of increase with a heavier charge. Very helpful!

Say, did you sign up over at Cast Boolits? It's one of the friendliest places on the net, and there are a LOT of cast-bullet shooters over there (almost 2000 registered, now, in barely a year!) I sure enjoy AR and many other sites, but for pure cast-bullet info, and an enjoyable place to hang out, Cast Boolits is a dandy.

Yo, Andy....

I managed to get out with some heavier 5744 loads today, but results were poor. The charges, under the NEI 400-grain 421-390GC, were 52.0 and 54.0 grains. The 54.0 load gave me factory-load ballistics with safe pressures, running at 2148 fps average.

The trouble is, the groups are horrible. Fired from a good benchrest, the 52.0 load put five into 6.2" from 50 yards, and the 54.0 load was even worse, at 8.6"!!! Many of the bullet-holes exhibit bullet instability, and one hole was an actual keyhole.

IMR 4198 was much better, getting down around the 1" mark at speeds nearing 2000 fps. I'm going to size the next run of bullets a bit larger to see what effect that might have on these 'tippers'. There's no barrel leading from any of the shooting to date.

Anyway, I believe you'll be safe in trying your 380-grain bullets with the charges of 5744 I've listed. I earnestly hope that your rifle likes the stuff better than mine does, as you near the top loads.

The write-up on today's shooting is posted on Cast Boolits under the same thread.