I have some 50-50 Alox/Beeswax, what speed should this be limited to in rifle and pistol rounds? Thanks for any info.

Steve E..........

wow nobody touched this.
i don't really use 50-50 but do use a b,a,carnuba mix in my rifle loads up to 2400 and could probably go further.
regular 50-50 should be fine as far as you wanna go in a revolver and you will definately know when it gives up in your rifle.

The old NRA 50:50 lube mix won't "give up" at any speed. What gives up is the bullet alloy, cast slugs are speed limited by their relitive softness compared to jacketed bullets.

The hardest possible lead alloy is much softer than the softest possible copper jacket. When bullet speed/acceleration gets too high, the rifling strips the outter layer of the bullet off.

I use beeswax and moly/lithium axle greese. In handguns I've never had a problem with it up to 1500 fps, in rifles no problems up to 2200 fps. I'm sure it would work at higher velocities, I just didn't run any higher on the bullets I was using.

ive shot it up over 2000fps and cant say i ever saw a problem due to lube failure. Only draw back i find with 5050 is its so soft that it will melt in high heat and it smokes darned near as bad as black powder when shot.

My experience with NRA formula 50/50 has been the same as Lloyd's. And I'd emphasize the smokey part!

Changed to Carnauba Red ... have pushed bullets faster with it and it generates little smoke.

quote:

Originally posted by mstarling:
My experience with NRA formula 50/50 has been the same as Lloyd's. And I'd emphasize the smokey part!

Changed to Carnauba Red ... have pushed bullets faster with it and it generates little smoke.

Yep, me too, don't care much for the Alox based lubes, just too smokey. CarnubaRed does everything I need a bullet lube to do from 800fps to 1800fps, soft or hard alloys.

I've done extensive testing shooting cast at high velocity. I've also done this testing with calibers that have an exceedingly fast twist. What I've found is that it is extremely difficult (I haven't been able to do it yet) to strip the bullet through the bore even with an air cooled 50/50 alloy which is 50% wheel weights and 50% pure lead. So most of you will never reach the limit of the alloy. As for lube they do have their limit. The 50/50 is very good lube but not for the high velocity with fast rifling twist. I find the LBT Blue lubes one of the better for that.

I've tried just about every lube out there in the serious cauldron of competition shooting. My experience is this...the hardness of the lube should match the hardness of the bullets, as well as the chronographed velocities reached.

That is, bullets up to about 12-14 BHN will work fine up to 1,800 or so fps and still deliver match-winning accuracy, using medium-strength lubes such as 50/50 alox/wax. Beyond 1,800 fps, one is skating on the edge with bullets that soft or a softer (runnier)lube...and especially with both soft bullets and soft lube. Unaccountable fliers are part of the indication of a bullet or lube not being hard enough, even though the size of the group average may still be okay.

From 1,800 fps up, one needs harder bullets (BHN 20 or higher) AND harder lube...such as heat-treated WW or staight lino bullets and one of the Carnuaba wax based lubes.

LBT Blue has (had?) three different "hardnesses" & formulas, though I think in the last few years since Veral's "vacation" that may have been reduced to two variations. Anyway, it works well up to 2,400 fps and Thompson's "Blue Angel" works even better on up to about 2,600 fps.

One can get a lube which is too hard though unless they are really pouring the coal to the velocities and using alloys harder than the hinges of Hell. I have not yet found an ideal spot for the extremely hard (and somewhat brittle) Thompson's Red Angel.

YMMV

I've gotten the Swede up to 2873 fps with air cooled 50/50 alloy. I won't agree with a BHN set to velocity limits. I believe if you fit the bullet to rifle it's shot from that you won't reach it's tensile limit.

There's really nothing different in the various grades of LBT Blue. Veral just adds either mineral oil or vasoline to make the softer version and the softer version isn't all that soft.

I make a lube myself that so far is beating LBT Blue at high velocity with fast rifling twist.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by SmokinJ:
I've gotten the Swede up to 2873 fps with air cooled 50/50 alloy. I won't agree with a BHN set to velocity limits. QUOTE]

Well, I agree fit is very important, but if you don't agree with BHN (bullet strength) limits, then why aren't folks shooting cast bullets out of their Swifts at 4,000+ fps?

That's a good question. You know you're talking an extreme even in shooting jacketed bullet the Swift has been known to blow up bullets. I can tell you that I've had a Colt HBAR AR 15 with a seven twist up to mid 3000 fps without stripping.
Now the accuracy with that wasn't nearly as good as I get with the Swede. It would be interesting in seeing how fast I could get a Swift to go.

I have been to 2100fps in the 30-30 with 50/50 and heat treated gas checked bullets.

SmokinJaka starmetal,MaxPayne,Joe, old joe,et al, ad naus.)Lost your password again,eh....Onceabull

i dont really agree with the hard lube for high velocity thought. Most hard lubes are just hard because more wax was added then a comparable soft lube. Wax is not the ingrediant that lubes. Its a carrier for the lubricating ingrediant. I dont have much use for hard lubes for anything. If a certain lube is working better for low speed then another 9 times out of 10 it will work better at high speeds too. Comparing rilfe to handguns i think that its the quanity of the lube that needs to be ajusted not the hardness. If you want instant leading use a hard lube like red rooster or magma blue in a rifle at high velocity when its around 10 degrees outside.

Lloyd two pm's coming your way.

I just fired some 475 gr. Lyman bullets (1115 fps?) lubed with some of the 50/50, Lee Alox/Bees Wax and it wasn't smoky any more than the standard lube I was using. Accuracy was the same also.

Steve E.........

quote:

Originally posted by Lloyd Smale:
i dont really agree with the hard lube for high velocity thought. Most hard lubes are just hard because more wax was added then a comparable soft lube. Wax is not the ingrediant that lubes. Its a carrier for the lubricating ingrediant. I dont have much use for hard lubes for anything. If a certain lube is working better for low speed then another 9 times out of 10 it will work better at high speeds too. Comparing rilfe to handguns i think that its the quanity of the lube that needs to be ajusted not the hardness. If you want instant leading use a hard lube like red rooster or magma blue in a rifle at high velocity when its around 10 degrees outside.

Your experince has been entirely different from mine. I reported exactly what I have experienced.

Proper bullet fit is esential, or no lube will work well. Soft lubes have failed for me in higher velocity match winning loads where the ONLY difference was the hardness of the lube. LBT worked fine; Thompson's Blue Angel even better.

Believe me, when I was looking for loads that would shoot 10-shot groups below 1/2" in competition, I tested danged near everything. I found really soft lubes such as Gray's 24 did not perform nearly as well for me as did a lube of a hardness fitting the velocities and bullet metals being shot.

My favourite load, which used Blue Angel, V-135, lino alloy, Winchester SR primers, Lapua Brass and Eagan MX4 bullets was fired ca. 2,300 fps. I have shot it in matches during snow-storms and it worked excellently.

But then, experiences vary. I can only tell folks about mine.

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:
That's a good question. You know you're talking an extreme even in shooting jacketed bullet the Swift has been known to blow up bullets. I can tell you that I've had a Colt HBAR AR 15 with a seven twist up to mid 3000 fps without stripping.
Now the accuracy with that wasn't nearly as good as I get with the Swede. It would be interesting in seeing how fast I could get a Swift to go.

Joe - What you have done sounds excellent to me.

I suggest that yes, some jacketed bullets do come apart from some Swift barrels at even 3,900 fps. There is no doubt about that.

I also suggest that is likely because of bullet strength failure as much as anything. With thicker "stronger" jackets, it seldom happens in the Swift, if ever.

Bullet strength which is not not adequate, fails. Further proof of that is this "How many monometal copper or brass bullets have you ever heard of that came apart in flight? Any?"

That is because monometal bullets are stronger than jacketed bullets, perhaps? The weaker the bullet, everything else being equal the sooner at least "some" bullets in each bunch of them shot MAY fail.

I suggest one of the accuracy problems with the 3,000 fps bullets in your quick twist AR MAY be the bullets are starting to deform in the flight down the barrel.

At least, some of them may be, hence the bigger groups...the significantly deformed ones do not fly perfectly true....inconsistent flight compared to the bullets which do not start to deform in flight.

But then, that's just my guess. I am not riding along beside them observing their shapes with a grid comparator.

Anyway, best wishes. Your experimenting sounds quite interesting.

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:
That's a good question. You know you're talking an extreme even in shooting jacketed bullet the Swift has been known to blow up bullets. I can tell you that I've had a Colt HBAR AR 15 with a seven twist up to mid 3000 fps without stripping.
Now the accuracy with that wasn't nearly as good as I get with the Swede. It would be interesting in seeing how fast I could get a Swift to go.

Joe - What you have done sounds excellent to me.

I suggest that yes, some jacketed bullets do come apart from some Swift barrels at even 3,900 fps. There is no doubt about that.

I also suggest that is likely because of bullet strength failure as much as anything. With thicker "stronger" jackets, it seldom happens in the Swift, if ever.

Bullet strength which is not not adequate, fails. Further proof of that is this "How many monometal copper or brass bullets have you ever heard of that came apart in flight? Any?"

That is because monometal bullets are stronger than jacketed bullets, perhaps? The weaker the bullet, everything else being equal the sooner at least "some" bullets in each bunch of them shot MAY fail.

I suggest one of the accuracy problems with the 3,000 fps bullets in your quick twist AR MAY be the bullets are starting to deform in the flight down the barrel.

At least, some of them may be, hence the bigger groups...the significantly deformed ones do not fly perfectly true....inconsistent flight compared to the bullets which do not start to deform in flight.

But then, that's just my guess. I am not riding along beside them observing their shapes with a grid comparator.

Anyway, best wishes. Your experimenting sounds quite interesting.

About the cast bullet alloy. I'm suggesting that it's far stronger then may believe it to be. Yes it does deform getting pounded into the bore, but if the fit is near perfect it deforms equal and starts straight into the bore. Once it's in the bore is where I feel the alloy is stronger then thought to be. I have honestly never stripped a cast bullet in a rifle even that fast twist AR15.

I make my own lube. I'll tell you what it is comprised of and if you are further interested in making some you can pm me for details. It is comprised of beeswax, Ivory soap (not the new aloe stuff they are selling but the original Ivory bar soap) and Castor Oil. There are some particularities in melting it especially the soap. This is the exclusive lube I use for all my high velocity 6.5 shooting. I shoot more then one 6.5 cartridge. Previously I used LBT Blue Soft.

Thanks guys for the info including the stuff not about the 50/50 Lee Alox/Bees Wax. It seems to shoot pretty good and not really any smoke at all like I said.

Steve E...........