HI,

Being new to this topic, I have seen a lot of discussion on the African hunting forum about bullets. I would be happy to some people here to help them understand more about HC bullets and how well they work,I hear them say HC will not work on African game. The people who have cast bullets for years will know that a well made HC will kill any game in Africa as well or better than many bullets they are using. I would like to see more experience HC bullet makers straighten them out on the facts, Thank you, Kev

kev, as you may have noticed, most of these people on african hunting, have their mind made up. never mind the facts, they don't matter.
i would be willing to bet most of them have never given HC a try.
but, ask these people a gunsmithing question, and they are all over it. they have helped out on several matters.
halfbreed

halfbreed
You said it. I participated for a while, until it became clear they would argue black is white. No point in getting their dander up. No way you'd ever convince them.

Kev,

I'm a big cast bullet nut, heck that's how I ended up suggesting this forum, and Saeed asking me to be the forum leader.

I haven't taken African game with cast bullets, so no real world experience there. I will provide my personal thoughts on cast bullets. A cast bullet with a large meplat is an effective killer, and heavy for caliber bullets will penetrate deeply.

I believe cast bullets behave best, ie most reliable when launched at a maximum of 1800-2000 fps. They simply aren't strong enough to sustain higher impact velocities on thick skinned heavy animals.

I also firmly believe that when you choose a heavy cast bullet to achieve the same penetration as a faster "conventional" African round, you sacrifice wound channel dia, and hence trauma.

Are cast bullets sufficient? in many instances yes, in other instances, no.

I think the biggest problem is most American's hunting experience is limited to white tail deer, and they thus theorize since I've killed 30, 50 or 100 white tails, I know all there is to know about all game species world wide.

Something to think about, Ross Seyfried is a Professional Hunter with lots of field experience, and also a hard core gun crank. I'm sure your aware of what he has done with heavy hardcast bullets with revolvers. What you should ponder is why he hasn't suggested using heavy hardcast bullets in African rifles, ie 416's, 458's, 500's et all? Could it be at rifle velocities that the jacketed, solid and monometal (ie X bullets) perform better?

I think you've really been misreading what has been said on the African board. All the experienced hunters agree that the cast bullet will kill, but, they also agree they aren't willing to live with the limitations imposed by said bullets and guns.

BTW, if I ever build a 600 OK, I will likely only shoot cast bullets, if a 900 gr hard cast @ 1800 fps won't be enough, then I'll respect the animal enough not to hunt it

Paul not to debate the issue too much, butr Marshall Stanton's HC bullets have been driven to 2600 FPS or so without any problems from rifles. Veral Smith did a bit of research on cast bullets on big game and found that a wound channel of 3/4" to 1.5" was ideal. Bigger or smaller wound channels would actually help the blood coagulate faster. I have shot Marshall's bullets from a 358 Winchester, 416/350 Rem mag wildcat into big game(not African) in excess of 2300 FPS. But do you really think that a 1500 pound African animal is more stoutly built than a 1500 pound American animal if the bullets are put into the right place. From my 430 JDJ at a measely 1700 FPS a 325 grain Bearthooth Bullet penetrated the length of a moose from right hip to the chest cavity. The shot was taken from 65 yards or so. Complete penetration on Musk Ox from 80 yards out of a 41 mag at 1400 FPS. I truly believe that HC bullets will work just as good as jacketed bullets in Africa. Besides, what did they shoot them with before there were jacketed bullets?

Kev...Not being an African game hunter, I guess I'm not qualified to comment on this but here goes. I feel that hardcast is probably the equal in penetration to jacketed stuff at a given velocity. The problem I beleive comes when you hit bone and hardcast tends to shatter as opposed to just deforming.

There's a pretty extensive article on using cast for African game in the Number 1 supplement to the NRA Cast Bullet manual if you can locate one. The caliber was the 375 H & H and the consensous was that softer cast held together better than hardcast did at rifle velocities.

I have cast a bunch of .375 350 grain bullets and a bunch of 412 grain PB .458 bullets that have found their way to Namibia and were used in a 45/70 and 375 H & H to take Warthogs,Eland and Kudu successfully. These were a tad softer than WW alloy and held together pretty well with no complaints and complete penetration was acheived in almost all cases.

I would not hesitate taking on some of the African species with appropriate cast loads. The big 4.....I'd have to think about that pretty seriously./beagle

Let's not forget that the American bison was killed by the millions....almost to the point of extinction....with cast bullets.

Methinks bullet performance is related to construction, impact velocity and how much resistance it'll encounter. Course putting it in the right spot helps too.

My suggestion is a HC might well be superior as to bullet path in the animal. If impact velocity is high enough the nose should shear off in pieces-- not increasing dia which slows penetration and increases the likelyhood of the bullet going off on another angle. At 1400 fps an HC bullet won't deform hardly A-tall and as the man said- penetrated straight thru.

People who cast bullets should not live in glass houses?

Do I get a prize??? No ???

BBB
Chuckle
You get a Bronx cheer and a raspberry.
Jim

I've been impressed with the penetration of cast bullets over the years. I worked up a plinking load for my 45-70 Siamese Mauser using a 45 Colt 255 gr. bullet. The bullet was made out of linotype. I would load 13 grs of Unique with a bit of tissue tamped down on the powder. This bullet would shoot through a 12in oak at 25 yards. There's loads for my 375 Whelen using a 265 gr babbit metal bullet that shot through a cross tie at 100 meters.
My usual hunting load for the Siamese Mauser would hold together and punch deeply, 20 inches, into an oak stump, with a 445 gr wheel weight alloy.
Getting that big ol chunk of lead moving and it will take awhile to get it stopped..
Jim

Twillis, it was the Beartooth Bullets 265 grain gc LFN over 21 grains of H110. 6" barreled Ruger 41 mag.

I have shot from springbok thru to kudu with cast SWC bullets. Weapons from 45acp (smaller animals) to 44mag.
Some dropped pretty soon after being hit, others I had to chase for awhile. In those days I could afford to experiment, now I want it down and in the pickup with a minimum of fuss.
Here are some of the results off the top of my head.
Steenbok @ 55m with 45acp 7" barrel, 200gr SWC @ 1050fps. Bullet went clean through behind shoulder to shoulder.
Duiker @ 20m, same round facing me, bullet recovered in rumen after going thru heart.
Bushbuck @ 20m quartering towards me, 357 Mag 6" 158gr SWC @ 1200/1300fps. bullet hit shoulder/rib, broke up, major follow up and finally got it.
Several Impala, same load, over penetration and wounded animal behind on two occasions.
44 mag, 6" 240gr SWC @ around 1300fps.
Shot a kudu cow @ 45m , quartering behind, went in halfway behind the ribs, clipped the heart and broke in 2 against the foreleg.
Kudu bull, frontal shot 30m, went in the chest, deflected down and cut a furrow in the lower chamber of the heart and stopped under the skin before the spleen.
Gemsbok Bull, 44mag with 300gr SWC @ 1300fps (a handful) First round @ 60m, bit high in the lung area, bullet was found under skin on the far side. The bull took off running, after a long walk we found it in the middle of a bushy vlei with the bush coming up to just above halfway up it's torso. I hit it 3 more times in the neck area as it was the only target open to me while it ran across us at around 40m. We finally caught up with it about an hour later and I finished it off with a head shot. It was not a hunt I am particularly proud of.
The 3 shots I hit the neck with were remarkable, no, not the shooting, but the fact that the bullets were not more than 1" deep under the skin.
I have shot a lot of animals subsequently with cast rifle bullets, but the overpenetration was always an issue. Kind of like using solids on everything. I have used machined GS FN solids on Buff and Elephant, but I do not know whether I would trust a HC bullet in those instances. Those bones are tough so I want all the advantage I can have. I have seen a bunch of conventional solids bent and warped so I am not sure what would happen with a cast.
Also, this side of the pond, if you scratch the crittur you pay for it, recovered or not, so premium bullets are more advisable.
Yeah, I know, the old timers used lead, but they lost a lot of animals and got stomped pretty regularly too

500 Nitro

I've got a 300 grain gas checked cast bullet mold for my 375 Whelen. With a case full of powder AA2360 or some such, (sorry but my loading books are packed up pending the construction of my reloading shed.)is both accurate and powerful. I've not chronographed the load but from the recoil and penetration on cross ties and the cupping a piece of 1/4 inch cold rolled steel at 100 yards, I'd say this has some power.
Jim

Arkypete,
that sounds like a thumper.
As mentioned, I worry about overpenetration and wounding something behind.
There is no question that cast bullets lack accuracy or penetration. They are more often than not great in both departments. Would I use one on a buff or elephant, I dunno. I get enough flak for using a Ruger #1 single shot on them

500 Nitro

I'm pretty sure a 45 caliber cast bullet would drop a Cape Buff. I'd bet that my 300 375 slug would do a job on a Cape Buff.
I sure as heck would not go after an elephant with a cast bullet. Personally I can't see shooting and elephant, but if I had to shoot one I would use the largest caliber solid I could stand, out of respect for the animal.
Jim

If you want to use HC bullets on your African safaris, use them. What do you care what bullets other people use?

I like cast bullets. There's certainly nothing wrong with them but if its my butt on the line and I think a specific jacketed bullet would better serve my purpose then that's my business. I wonder how many tens of thousands of game were harvested before the advent of the jacketed bullet? Quite a lot I imagine.

This is what makes an interesting horse race.

we have done extensive penetration test on large hard cast bullets and have shot them at 2000fps into cast out of lynotpye and water dropped ww into 4 inches of hard oak and then into wet news paper and have moved the oak into different positions in the news paper and have yet to have a bullet as hard as these are come apart. They have deformed in many cases but usually penetrate substaintialy better then say a bullet cast out of ww and hold together alot better. They totaly put any jacketed bullet including all of the premium ones we tried to shame sometimes doubleing the penetration. ALot of that bs about hard cast bullets breaking up when cast to hard is just that BS! Some gun writter who needed a story and had one bullet fail because it probably had a void in it from not being properly cast to begin with or was getting free bullets from some condom bullet co. Just yesterday I shot my .458 with a 500 grain cast at 2200fps right through a 12 inch tree try that with a soft nose bullet and by the way the cast bullets in most cases have outpenetrated that factory solid loads and almost allways track straighter though the test media. I may not have any african experience but ive fooled with cast bullets long enough to know that any animal thats in front of my .458 or 4570 with a good cast load that doesnt die after the shot canot be blamed on the bullet it would have to be a Lloyd failure!!

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Originally posted by aladin:
Methinks bullet performance is related to construction, impact velocity and how much resistance it'll encounter. Course putting it in the right spot helps too.

My suggestion is a HC might well be superior as to bullet path in the animal. If impact velocity is high enough the nose should shear off in pieces-- not increasing dia which slows penetration and increases the likelyhood of the bullet going off on another angle. At 1400 fps an HC bullet won't deform hardly A-tall and as the man said- penetrated straight thru.

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