Hey Hammerhead ! I sent you an email with more piks in it. And I want to see kb's machine, too! Dale

Hi Bravokilo. I am sorry for the delay. I have sent 5 pictures this morning. You should have them by now. Dale

SO, what's the collected opinion about the best way to open and close the moulds?

Would you retain the handles or build an arrangement with something like ball-slides?

Same question for sprue cutting - original or custom?

Hi Mr. Hiliard & TRK,



TRK, your nice photo of mortars is a dead give-away for me, since you recently sent it to me and a friend of mine named Lester. Can't be too many photos like that around! Our Callico Sue sends her regards to your pretty cat. (BG) Hope you've enjoyed the discussion.



I took some different approaches on my machine, and they've worked out pretty well. I hope you find them interesting.



First, by adapting it for single or double cavity blocks, I eliminated the need to move the lead pot or the mold for good filling. (I cut a lead channel in the sprue cutter of a double cavity to fill both cavities at the same time. Works good for a 2 banger, but not too practical for big gang molds.)



Second, I apparently used a shorter sprue cutter than you: Mine's not much larger than the original, but configured a bit differently. You'll understand why in a moment.



Third, I timed the cycle to open the mold slightly BEFORE the sprue is cut. This guarantees that the bullets are always in the same mold block, which greatly simplifies the task of bullet ejection. I did this with some trepidation, worrying needlessly that the hot, soft base would be deformed by the subsequent sprue cutting, but it worked great - and there's no real reason it shouldn't: No matter how soft and weak the base of the bullet might be, it's still a lot thicker and stronger than the sprue hole. So it's the sprue that gives way, not the bullet base.



Fourth, shortly after the mold opens, the sprue cutter is pivoted to cut the sprue by a steel pin from the top of the frame that engages a slot in the handle of the sprue plate. Note that this same slot and pin arrangement returns the sprue plate to battery when the blocks are re-closed by the soleniod.



The sprue usually falls off when it's cut, but always falls off by the time the shaking (to eject the bullets) is finished. Both the bullets and the sprue are caught on a soft cloth ramp and rolled out the front of the machine, where the sprues are returned to the pot, and the bullets are collected and scanned for obvious flaws, which join the sprues. So I can't get too far from my machine either, or it'll develop a log jam at the bottom of the ramp.



Also, my mold mounts are fitted to the blocks, and adjustable for position by set screws in the frame: If needful, I could probably remove the mold alignment pins from the blocks and still get good results - though I haven't done it!



Hope you enjoyed the description. BTW, if you're anywhere near Mason, Ohio, maybe we could get together sometime.



Regards,

kbmoly

Hey, I've got a calico simply named "Callie" who loves to "help" me clean up wheelweights and cast ingots by sitting a few feet away with her eyes happily squinted, dozing. She'd love to "help" me cast, too, but I won't let her because too much lead splatters around from my leaky bottom pour Lee pot. She comes on the run when I start working on anything outside, and isn't bothered by noises of running engines, etc.

DE -
You're right about getting to the level of technology required to do all the operations.

At work I program LabVIEW to do all kinds of tests on DC Brushless Motors - from measuring resistance, rpm, current, BEMF, hall and encoder alignment and so forth to doing the calculations of torque and efficiency. So it wouldn't be a great leap to control sequence, timing, position and force on cylinders. (Student version is available for about $75 with a book and CD.)

The question is of course of time and priority ....

Hi Richochet,

Our Calico is a lot different from yours. She's TERRIFIED by loud noises, strangers, etc. We should have named her 'scardy cat'. But it's got its advantages. If she doesn't want to come in the house when we're ready for bed, all I have to do is start up my 'reverse cat call' or lawn mower. You should see her streak for the house! (BG)

Hi to you too, Hillyer.

Glad you like my design. You don't have to open the mold much to pull the bullets loose from the 'wrong side' of the mold. Just a few thousandths will do the job. Frankly, I don't remember just how far, but if you can see daylight at that point, it's far enough. And it's accomplished not by timers, but by locating the pivot pin so that it doesn't bear strongly on the sprue cutter until the blocks have started to open. (The slot is actually slightly triangular.) And sprue removal is only partially by vibration, and then only when centrifugal force has not proven adequate. You see, the opening stroke that cuts the sprue also swings the sprue plate with some enthusiasm, which flings the sprue off to the side - unless the lead flow is too high, and lead has flown down the side of the mold. In that case, I have to interrupt the cycle and pry it off. (like you said, part of the secret is keeping the melt temperature and volume reasonably consistent.) But sprue overflow is not a problem very often once the flow rate is set for the mold and bullet weight. And the force available to open is often enough to even eject overflows. But no, I don't take any particular care with the sprue cutter: I made them out of stainless so'd the sprues wouldn't stick like they can to ferrous plates. Seems to do the job.

As for being sure that there's no base damage from cutting the sprue after opening, all I can say is that I remember worrying about it and checking it out pretty thoroughly, but that's been MANY years back and I don't recall the details. But I use it mostly for pistol bullets, and that's not quite so critical anyhow. All I can say is that it seems to work well enough for me. And I don't recall any accuracy problems when I have used it for rifle bullets. I have more boxes of Lyman 311291 and 311290 that it looks like I will use for the rest of my life, courtesy of the machine, and they seem to shoot just fine: For example, I can get 3/4 to one inch 50 yard groups from them using a case full of 4831 in a sporter 30-06. That's plenty good enough for my needs. Does jest fine on pop cans, groundhogs and whitetails.

kbmoly

Ooppss- 1100 times 8 = 8800 grains or over a pound of lead. I went to school- Honest I did!

Hi kbmoly and trk! kb first. So cool. I would very much like to see a picture of your machine. I thought about computer control but the controllers are difficult to come by here in the "sticks". That would have several advantages- you could put delays in anywhere there is a switch ( the switch switches and the computer "counts" seconds until the next operation happens. You could write your own program and make it do a number of things.

I have run 2 cavity lyman blocks on my machine but that requires a long sprue plate and that causes problems on the base of the bullet. I had a 50% reject rate with that method and that is unacceptabe. I also had to be right there- no wondering off for a few seconds or minutes. I am just going to use 4 or 6 cavity molds for what I need- custom if necessary.

This machine has 3 timers right now. "up" time, "down" time, and "pour" time (how long the pot moves across the mold). The next model will have one more. A "delay" timer so I can adjust how long the pot remains stationary over the 1st cavity BEFORE it starts to move. I like to pour that cavity full and then start moving to the next. That improves quality.

(Just to explain- down time is the time the blocks are open to cool including the time for the relays and cylinders to react. Up time and pour time are related. For example- 10 seconds up with 5 seconds pour time = 5 seconds for cooling. 20.2 seconds up with 6.1 seconds pour = 14.1 seconds cooling. This way you can run the mold at the speed you need.)

I guess I do have another timer but it is just for the "start" cycle so the machine always starts "mold down-sprue closed and immediately opens sprue and then blocks"

now for trk- All these cylinders have pressure and speed controls. I can close the blocks so slow you would be bored or I can slam them shut. I like slow and with just enough pressure ( think power) that the molds gently close all the way. I have a 6 cavity Lee .38 mold that has made 25,000 bullets and is still in great shape.

I have only used the slide system on a powered machine- but with enough adjustments I think it is good- very good.

Lee 6 cavity sprue are only modified by drilling a hole for the open cylinder to mount to, trimming the top edge at an angle so doesn't cover any of the bullet when open. It takes 2 cylinders to cut the sprue. One, mounted behind the mould , uses leverage and great power to cut the sprues. This system only moves the sprue plate an inch or less. The other mounted to the side of the mold opens the free moving sprue plate all the way to the side so the bullets can fall out smoother.

The lyman 4 cavity sprue plate is modified by pounding the plate flat and drilling a hole for the cylinder to attach like the Lee. I also cut a channel in the Lyamn for the molten lead to flow thru and lay in. I would cut the Lee for a channel but it is anodized and I don't want to destroy it.Questions? - ask
want to talk? hmh56@wabash.net
Dalee

To trk- I am sure you can do it, just from your post. If you have the parts- the rest is history! This started out on a whim and became a major project. The auto mated "wiring" was a little tricky at first but 90 sleepless nights (just kidding!) fixed that. The first machine had everything welded in place- and it worked good with the mold it was designed for. But molds have variance in them and everything needs to be adjustable.

To kbmoly- I considered a machine for 1 or 2 cavity molds that didn't rotate. But I didn't have a way to clean the sprue plate.I must say your solution of vibrating the sprue off the top is ingenious-really it is! you must take special care with the top of your 'plate so the sprue has every chance to "come loose"! Very seldom does one stick to mine but when it does- you have to pry it off.You design is much,much simplier.I will have to think about this!

My design where the mold rotates down & away from the nozzle has just a few things going for it. The bullets fall in one place & the sprues another. But that's minor. The mold is not under the pot IF you want to inspect/clean/etc. But you could simply move the pot and have all the room in the world! I really would like to have a picture of it.

One of the reasons I can't just leave the machine running is not stuck bullets.A stuck bullet usually falls out on the next cast- and the lead that should have went in the mold just makes a bigger sprue. Usually not a problem. But keeping the pot full of lead is!

For example- 4= 240 grain .44 bullets plus sprue could be 1100 grains or even 1300 grains ( just guessing) for each pour. In 2 minutes, that is 8 pours or almost a pound of lead! So I need to stay there to put the sprues back in and add lead. The pot will keep up but not if you let it get behind. You have to add as you use it. Also, if the lead level changes over 1 inch, the pour changes. Lower lead level= less "head" pressure= less flow out the bottom=less sprue = changes in pouring/bullets/sprue. The fix is to have 2 pots. One above the other. The bottom pot would have a float ,like a bathroom float, so the top pot would keep the bottom one at the same level all the time.( I would use electrical switch with solinoid/slave cylinder and only pour on down cycle when the pot is sitting still at the back position,) 2 pots would also double the heatimg ability. I have a digital readout on my machine. Lay a 1 pound ingot in the pot and the melt temperature can change 100 degrees in a few seconds.Then stagger back up where it should be. The 2nd (top) pot should add melted lead at a much closer temp.

I really don't know if a stationary pot would pour from one end of the sprue to the other and cast good bullets. I could run some tests fairly easily. Just unplug the travel and pour all the same. I know you can jump 1 cavity ..but 3 or 5? Hmmmm.... might have to try it.

Lastly, the idea of opening the mold slightly before cutting the sprue is terrific. How far do you open it? And you can find no damage to the bases doing this? ( I am not being smart or critical- just curious).

I thank you for your reply- I have much to think about. I am wondering if a 4 or 6 cavity machine could be made to work like yours. If it won't- what am going to do with all these 4 cavity molds???

No, I haven't tried NEI 308-190-GC #63 with the .301 ogive. Frankly, I have about 4 or 5 ammo cans full of molds, but most of my shooting (in 30 cal rifles) swings around 311290, 311291 & 311299, simply because they work so well. I just have little need for anything else for most of it. Of course, I have plenty of variations, like 3118 for squirrels or 32-20, with a scattering of 25, 7mm, 270, 32, 38, 9mm, 40, .44, .45 and even a couple of .50 caliber molds. I'm not hurting for variability.

And similarly, I've done some heat ttreating just for the experience, and it works well. But I don't need it. I have a lifetime supply of Linotype and wheel weights laid by, along with some misc like monotype for alloying. So I can get most any hardness I want without the trouble of heat treating. Just getting set in my ways I expect, but I find my shooting nowadays takes up less and less of my time, simply because I have so many other interests. For example, a friend is getting involved as a commercial firearms manufacturer, and is going to be turning out exact reproductions of Martini 'Kangaroo' Cadets soon. My primary role in the enterprise seems to be thorn-in-the-side, but I enjoy it, and think I've made a few contributions here and there. But every day or evening spent helping him subtracts from time for casting and loading.

I've even sunk so low as to take up air rifles this winter, simply for lack of time to load up suitable '06 ammo for my range in the basement. And that meant I had to adjust the focus and parallax on a few scopes, which took up more time ..... Thar jest ain't no end ter it.

kbmoly

Using air rifles in the winter is the BEST practice you can do. Their light weight excentuates YOUR mistakes & you get better. THE best shots on the rifle team (M14's) were those that practiced with air rifles! Besides, you can cast boolets for them too.

looks and sounds like a neat contraption but i find hand casting bullets to be theraputic in a sense. all my 150 gr. swc .38 cal bullets are cast one at a time from a one cavity lyman mould. i am glad to see that someone else dosn't think the only thing cats are for is target practice though.

THE 2ND AMENDMENT PROTECTS US ALL.....

Hi Tasco74- That's true too! But I need all the "therapy" i can get. LOL! But it is hard to argue with working one long day a year and making 10,000 bullets. But handcasting is FUN1 _I am soo conflicted ! LOL Dale

well, we agree on another thing- cases full of 4831. Power and accuracy together! Have you ever shot this NEI bullet (308-190-GC #63 with the .301 ogive) ? I have a 4 cavity mold to try sometime. Something like a 311332 but I hope the gas checks fit better.

I have heat treated 311332 out of the machine and have had very good results with the heat treatment. Do you heat treat?

I don't want to buy jacketed bullets- too much money to shoot silhouettes or paper! Cast will do for 99.9% of my shooting.

Thank You for your Kind Replies. Dale

Yeah, I made one - actually, I've made several, starting with clockwork designs (worked, but clumsy, hard to adjust and not too reliable), going through a computerized version (expensive, and hard to maintain) and finally an electronic timer and solenoid operated version that is still getting ocassional use in my basement. Uses standard, unmodified Lyman or Saco blocks (with a new sprue cutter) - just one or two cavity blocks, but hey, I was looking for easy, and if the machine does all the work, I figured "What's time to a hog?" (BG)

Fill the pot, plug it in, and set back and sip your coffee while it turns out slugs. It senses - and maintains - the lead temperature automatically, starts pouring the lead when the pot is up to temperature, waits for the sprue to cool, cuts it off , opens the mold, shakes the bullets out, recloses the mold (gently!) and starts the next pour.

Adjustable for melt temperature, volume and rate of pour, length of time delay for the sprue to harden, and length of delay for shaking (for 'sticky' molds) too. All I have to do is sort the sprues and bullets. If I ever make another, I'll have it eject the sprues from one side and the bullets from the other. (Getting lazy in my old age) And to top things off, it's small enough to use on a desk top and store in a file drawer or small cabinet. Kinda heavy though. I'd guess it runs mebby 50-70 pounds. Next time I'll use an aluminum or magnesium frame instead of steel.

Production rate varies with molds, settings and weight of bullet (500g 45-70 slugs take a lot of cooling time once the mold is hot), but for typical 170 - 250g slugs, production rates seem to run about 600 - 700 finished slugs per hour. That's a lot faster that I can use them, so it's plenty fast for me.

Nice to know I'm not alone in the world.

Regards,
kbmoly

kbmoly & dale, Will a manifold pouring valve work on moulds with a large number of cavities ie....6,8 or 10? What I am thinking is fill all of the cavities at once. I have been kicking the idea for a machine around for many years but for one reason or another just never did complete one. One of the problems was where I was living at the time there wasn't much technical advise around. Well got off subject a bit. Will the manifold valve work? On another subject Dale is on the right track about using two pots I have done this for 15 or more years and it works great. Now to take this one step farther you can feed the premelt pot with a feeder from an old elrod strip caster. You have to pour your alloy into lino pig moulds to do this but havng 25+ lbs of alloy ready to feed is a great time saver. I once used one on a Magma casting machine so I didn't have to set and feed the thing. Hammerhead

Hi all,



Yeah, the two pot melt does have its advantages. The first I ever heard of it was an article in HANDLOADER mag some years back, where a fellow had two of them stacked, and tied together so that when he lifted one valve, both of them opened. As much lead flowed into the main pot as drained away, so it was pretty slick. But it seemed like a pretty expensive answer to something that wasn't a real problem for me, so I never played with it any.



As for posting a picture of my machine, I have to confess to being optically challenged. Anyone that wants to come by and photograph it is welcome. I could probably get it done eventually, but it would be a major problem for me. Perhaps a better verbal description will help you 'see' it:



It's small: About the size of an old fashioned bread box, if you remember such contraptions. You can actually hold it on your lap easily, though I'd recommend another support when actually operating it. (BG) It consists of three major portions, all roughly the same size:

1) A commercial lead pot. Actually, I discarded the temperature controls on this version, because the darn thermocouples were so hard to get consistent readings from, and the wires kept getting fouled with lead spatters. The pot is mounted on and drains into the center (mold location) of

2) A square steel tube frame measuring about 10 or 12 inches (I forget, and am too lazy to go measure it. Size yours to suit yourself.) Mounted to the right of the frame is a box of working parts and timers, also about 10 or 12 inches square.



The timers control the pour time, the delay for the sprue to harden, and the shake time to remove the bullets before the mold is reclosed. There's also an on and off switch.



Inside the frame, there's really not much to see: Just a mold mount that's bolted to the center of the left wall, a few pins from the top of the frame to swing the sprue cutter, the mold itself and the right mold mount, which is a 1.125 dia precision rod mounted (inside the right 'works box') in a linear bearing and connected to a pretty substantial solenoid. This bar is spring loaded so that it's nominal position is closed (to the left, holding the blocks together.



In operation, a smaller solenoid on top of the pot opens the lead valve for a preset length of time to fill the mold, and then it waits for the sprue to harden. When enough time has passed, the timer trips the main soleniod and opens the mold. There is enough clearance that the soleniod only has to ovecome the resistance to opening the mold at first. This is what keeps the bullets in the same side of the mold all the time.



Then cycle briefly picks up some speed / inertia before hitting the pin to rotate the sprue cutter, which helps clip the sprue off cleanly and easily. The sprue is (almost always) tossed off to the side by the rapid flip, or vibrated off in the next step.



When the solenoid reaches the far end of its stroke, it is carrying the right half of the mold (with the sprue cutter) and the bullet(s). At the far end of the stroke is a microswitch that cuts power to the solenoid. When the operating bar hits the switch, the soleniod cuts out and the spring takes over, pulling the bar back, closing the switch and activating the soleniod again. This results in a very substantial horizontal vibration that does a fine job of removing the cast bullets - and can be set (with the timers) for as long as it takes, which covers even the 'stickiest' molds. You can also preset the magnitude of the vibration by positioning of the microswitch.



After the bullets (and sprue) have been shaken out, they fall onto a steep cotton cloth ramp (acrylic or polyester will melt with lead drips)and roll out the front. Meanwhile, the power is drained from the soleniod and allows the mold to reclose under spring tension. When the mold has closed, another microswitch triggers the next pour, and the cycle just keeps repeating from there.



Oh yeah, there's a small computer type cooling fan mounted in the back of the frame that is also turned on by a microswitch when the mold is closed: Helps with cooling and shortens cycle time, increasing production rates. But not enough air flow to splatter the pour, and it works well.



I designed it to be easy and cheap to manufacture, and intended to commercialize it at one point, but learned the hard way that whatever talents the Lord has given me, they do NOT include any marketing skills.



Regards,

kbmoly

I've thought about making up a mold for air rifles, but I don't have enough to do as it is. (Are they commercially available?) Casting 22 slugs is bad enough. I think I'd rather swage if I had to make .177 bullets. As for light weight, some of my air rifles weigh more than a '98 Mauser - or 'pert near, anyhow.

kbmoly

Well, weak is a relative term, and I'm not sure how to quantify the spring for you. But the way I have it set up, I really don't think it would make much difference, because the left mold mount (viewed from the front) is adjustable for position, so it can be set to precicely meet the other mold block, even if there were no allignment pins. And it would take one heck of a slap to deform the whole face of the mold blocks. Also, my mounts are pretty snug fits on the blocks, and they can't get out of allignment very much. However, a hydraulic cushion would be a good thing, and can't hurt. Do it!

As for the sprue cutter, let me see if I can describe it a bit more closely for you. First of all, the basic shape is self explanatory as far as location of sprue hole, pivot screws and the like. You could pretty much lay a standard lyman cutter on a sheet and trace the holes and outline with a scribe. The only real difference in the basic cutters are
1) Stainless, for freedom from lead buildup and easier release.
2) A 45 degree slope on the edges to facilitate reclosing. (The sprue cutter will sometimes work loose from vibration, and otherwise, a shart cornered edge can scratch the top of the mold.)
3) Thicker, enabling a deeper sprue cavity for a heavier sprue, which is easier to toss off by inertia.
4) Sharper. There's no 1/16" blunt 'edge'to the sprue hole, it's SHARP! Cuts better, smoother, giving better bases, less deformation.

Otherwise, the primary difference is a long arm on the sprue cutter instead of a little edge button like Lyman uses on their 2-cavity blocks. From memory, I'd guess that mine is about 3 to 3.5 " long.

There have been two versions of the sprue cutter: One is a simple extention about 1/2 inch wide. When the mold has opened about 1/8", the edge strikes a pin mounted in the top of of the frame, which swivels the sprue cutter, nipping the sprue and flinging it off. When the mold returns, another pin catches the other edge and returns it to battery as the mold blocks close. The trouble with this version is that the pin positioning can be pretty critical, and you have to have both of them pretty well right. Otherwise, the sprue cutter can bind on the stop pin when the blocks close, or it won't return fully. And there's not much play between the two options.

In the second version, the extention arm is a bit wider, and has a 1/4" slot down the center, with a short 'L' extention next to the mold. A single pin in the roof rides in the slot. The short 'L' allows the mold to open slightly before the pin hits the end and cuts the sprue, from which it just rides in the long slot while the rest of the cycle is going on. Then when the blocks close, the same slot / pin rotates the sprue back into position for the next cycle. This has the advantages of only needing to position one pin, and not too precicely at that.

Hope this helps.

kbmoly

Hey Dale,thanks for your thoughts I had thought about building the big pot with a manifold valve to try out but was just picking other peoples brains on this one. Yes Dale the premelt pot idea is great.I got it from the book the Art of Bullet Casting. I use a float in the pouring pot with a small chain going up over a pulley and attached to the pouring lever of the premelt pot works great.. Like I said about the old lino pig feeder these are great too really give you some back up and the bar hanging over the premelt pot is very hot so it doesn't upset the heat of the premelt pot to much... Now can we get kbmoly to post some pictures of his machine????? Hammerhead

Hi Hammerhead- I have no experience and really don't know about the manifold system. But I see a few problems- It would have to be heated or inside the pot to keep the lead from cooling off and plugging the manifold.The flow would have to be the same to all nozzles or perhaps some sprues might be a lot bigger than others. Of course, if you pour a generous sprue and run them all together- it might be fine. keeping them clean and all from leaking. hmmm.. - I just really don't know.

It might take a good sized valve to feed 10 nozzles too.

You could build the manifold and use it with your molds without building a machine- R&D I think they call it. Then you would know.

Thanks for telling me about the 2 pots. I am more curious about building it now. I think it would improve casting consistency ( and therefore bullet quality ) and let me get farther away from the machine for longer periods.)

Maybe we all should get together and build a machine. With so many labor saving ideas- we could have a competion to see who is the laziest!!!! ( quick story- father sez to son- " look out to see if it is raining' Son replies- "awww dad, just whistle for the dog and see if he is wet!"

Dale