What is the fastest that you have been able to push a lead gas checked bullet accurately?

I have been playing with some .224 loads and am not seeing real good groups. Most are about 5 to 6 inches at 100 yards while I get under an inch with jacketed loads.

There are alot of factors involved in how fast one can push a cast bullet. Bullet alloy, bullet hardness (more accurately sheer strength), barrel twist rate, lube and even powder burn rate.

The 22 cals are even pickier about making them shoot well, as you have to cast perrrfect bullets for them.

In most rifles, 2000, even 2200 fps isn't much of a problem. But, if you have fast twist barrel, you may limit out at 1700 fps. On the other hand, if you have a dedicated cast bullet rifle, like Aladin, you'll be shooting at jacketed bullet speeds.

No hard and fast rules with cast bullets, just lots of factors that can work for, or against you.

I have been shooting with a 15 inch encore with a 1 in 12 twist. My bullets are 45 grains and are cast from wheelweight material. A small amount of tin is added to get it to cast better.

The loads I have been trying, run close to 2800 to 2900 fps, I think, judging from book data for jacketed loads. I really need a chrony!!!! The loads are 25.5 grains of IMR 4064 which gives me a full case. The bullets are lubed with RCBS lube. I realize that this powder is a bit slow for the .223 Rem, but I was thinking that the slower powder would give the bullet more of a gentle push than a swat so it could bite the rifling better.

I tried a few loads with IMR 4198 but got about the same groups as with the 4064.

I am starting to weigh some bullets to get equal weights. I will have to see what that does for it.

As a little experiment,try 4gr red dot or 3.7gr 700x.not for speed,but for group size,you may (or may not)be surprised.no fillers and a normal(I use cci br-4`s)primer.

If you want to shoot in the 2800-2900 fps range, you will need to be adding lino, and possibly heat treating. Aladin has done a bit of work at higher velocities, and can probably add in again on this.

Basicaly, at this velocity, you must have a bullet in the range of 27-28 Brinell minimum to handle the stresses. 30 would probably be better. You will also need a premium high speed lube.

Velocity isn't what we're after with cast bullets, per se. It's more economy and accuracy, and after a person gets adjusted to that, they find they also kill just fine if that is your end game.

what is a premium high speed lube?
is 23-24 bhn hard enough (water dropped/ww).
is the base of the bullet the problem (it gets distorted) at high speed.

"what is a premium high speed lube?"

I think as far as commercial lubes go, you'd have to pick what the cast BR competitors are using as most run very high chamber pressures. These would be as far as I know [and I couldn't name all of them] Thompson's Blue Angel, Gray lubes [Made by Tom Gray] LBT Blue and various home brews. Mine currently in an average lube with additives. Needs to be firm enough to handle high psi's, as the first job with a lube is gas seal.

"is 23-24 bhn hard enough (water dropped/ww)?"

Depending on the caliber, probably. I heat treat in an oven which produces the highest bhn by treatment. Alot of BR cast shooters use lino or various enriched alloys which are in the area of dropped ww alloy for hardness. I refer to BR cast shooters as they generally run very high chamber pressures compared to typical cast loadings.

"is the base of the bullet the problem (it gets distorted) at high speed?"

Not really being heat treated with a good lube, your first consideration is alignment with the bore center-- as any accuracy loading. The primary consideration for speed is bearing surface strength. Consider the typical 180 gr 30 caliber spitzer-- usually you've got .5 to .6" of full dia jacket material [@ 100 bhn] for the rifling to hold. Look at the average cast 'shell'-- few have even .3" of full groove dia for grip. So pushing these slugs down the bore fast most often results in slugging-- the bullet failing to hold the rifling and accuracy isn't. So to increase strength you heat treat and go over size in dia. My current test loads go .312 on the two base bands and .309 on the wide front driver [this a custom spitzer LBT mold] with these loads shot in a 308 dia barrel. Lube is getting a workout and I am applying lube to the front of the first driver by hand. Yet my current home brew isn't leading a speck. And this is due to barrel Q-- that bore is very uniform per dia for it's length and this is what makes this kind of speed possible. A poor bore for uniformity won't shoot fast with cast no matter the technique. Bullet Q has to be decent, the check bases square and the use of the slowest cannister powders possible for the desired speed.

For sure loading a .312 bullet dia in a case like I'm doing demands attention to neck dia. The 06 is too generous per neck dia and this is no problem in my gun. Any oversized loading in any caliber demands attention to loaded neck dia. per clearance-- safety first as always.

Why the speed? In my case I get a kick otta it, but it's my way of evaluating a lube. And the best lube for these conditions might not be the ideal lube for 1700 fps plinking either. But shooten with speed has taught me more about cast than the traditional speeds. It's not for everyone, the many would try such and walk away [the smart ones] after little experimentation. The real use of such is mostly for it's sake, but I do get a kick otta shooten our 600 yd berm with loads than require very little more elevation than jacketed slugs. But will readily admit the 2000 fps loads I normally plink with are probably as accurate if not more so-- and are much more user friendly.

thanks aladin for the info,does this hold true for big revolvers (454,480,475) i dont rifle shoot at this time,thanks sean h

I've done a bit of cast bullet shooting through the 480 From my experiences, a plainbased water quenched wheelweight bullet, BHN 18, will work well up to 1200-1300 fps. You might see some leading at these speeds, but I'm not sure if that is because the bullet is too soft, or a lube problem. I just shot several loads of the Lee 400 gr yesterday, and noticed some leading in the barrel. The lee bullet has minimal lube grooves. I'll have to try some Appache blue and LBT blue to see if they have any effect on grouping or leading. I was using my 50/50 moly beeswax lube.

Gas checked bullets can be driven as fast as a revolver is capable of, and from my exerience, water quenched wheelweigths are plenty hard. I think folks have a tendancy to try and make their bullets too hard, and go into excessive effort and expense to alloy and heat treat. I've been utterly pleased witht the simplicity, performance and economy of water quenched wheelweight bullets.

Here is a picture of my 460 gr WFN gc launced @ 1100 fps from a 480, bullet on the left went through 38" newsprint, bullet on the right 2-3" bone, then 10" newsprint. Both bullets obviously lost their gas check, and curiously appear to have some shearing from the rifling on the bullet. That bullet will group 1" at 50 yds, and is accurate out to 150 yds, though reportedly starts to fly wild past 175 yds.