Jumptrap;

Well thought out and well said, I agree with you on this wholeheartedly.

Hey Jumptrap! Sorry I bored you with that Ideal / Lyman historical stuff, but someone asked - and I've been accumulating this kind of material for the last 40 years or so. It's led to some great excursions through old catalogs, and the "Rifleman" back into the early 1920's, and maybe I'm just too enthusiastic about sharing it. So, if I end up next week telling you more than you really want to know about Modern-Bond moulds or B & M "Straightline" tools, just nod and scroll on by. I do the same with maybe 10-20% of the posts here, but I get something new every visit. Even the "off topics" are fun and informative more often than not. I do agree, AR and AIMOO aren't up to the old "Shooters" - yet, but give 'em time. I still count you all as my friends, and in this sparsely-populated rural area, that counts for a lot. See ya'. floodgate

Floodgate, my friend;

historical discovery and explanation isn't the problem...your work is appreciated and of great value to all concerned.

However, when some beginner asks a very simple question, all it requires is a very simple answer. IE., "I want to start shooting cast bullets in my model 94 30-30, where do I start?" Answer: First, get yourself a copy of a cast bullet handbook and read it. Consider the recommendations made therein and purchase the required mould(s) and basic necessities. Should you have any problems or questions after you're started, just ask.

These guys don't know a 311291 from a Saeco 302, no need in belaboring the point. They can't do anything until they acquire some equipment, so no need in putting the horse before the cart and start espousing load recommendations, seating depths, lube requirements and the differences in lubers. You can't very well learn to drive a car until you either own or have access to one. You can't cast bullets from imaginary moulds either.

#568956 post... all that yappin' for what? Nothing to do with cast shooten.. Who has the time to read all that nonsense?

If you have the kind of time to post such preachy drivel you need to get a real life.

One day the King looked out and saw a HUGE shadow. Looking closer he saw a Huge set of yellow fingers. He went outside for a closer look and the fingers thumped him and killed him. So the Supreme Court elected a new King. The new king also saw the Huge fingers,but knew better than to go out. So he sent a page to have a look see. The fingers thumped him and broke his leg. He couldnt walk. Now the moral of the story thus far is "let your pages do the walking through the yellow fingers". But the king had no information about the yellow fingers,but wanted to know. He asked the page who they belonged to,who had crippled him? The page didnt know. So it begs the question "Why is this page so lame?"

Aladin,

Happy Valentine's day to you. Glad to see you. Glad that you can see me. Please re-read the drivel, it makes a good point about not being snarly and nasty to each other.

I know you really didn't mean it that way, but to a new reader to the list it might come across that way when read for "surface content only". This can cause concern to new readers and cause them to think this is a stressed environment.

In short, if we don't act like bullies to each other then the list is a healther place. How about it? It just takes a little extra effort on everybody's part.

Oldfeller

It's long about time for the Shooter's folks to become AR folks. I was casting before half of you were born. Learned some and got a lot left to learn. (Learned some of what I needed to know from Shooter's folks to be fair about it.)

In the immortal words of Rodney King, "Can't we all just get along?).

Is it a little lead streaking or is it a total bore wall coverage type heavy leading?



I have heard people praise the use of case-filling buffer compounds on a lightly streaked bore to "shoot" the stringy type leading out.



Grumble once mentioned the use of his old rounded-off used up corn-cob media as a shot buffer compound, such a compound would have a really good scrubbing action going up the bore even if it was used with a bulleted round.



The gas pressure would pack it into a flowing scrubbing "solid" as it followed the bullet up the bore that should work really well on stringy leading.



Folks have mentioned the use of vinegar and soda to get leading out of a bore -- I've never done that so I can't speak to it.



Very thoroughly & deeply leaded-up bores could require the use of a electrical bore deplater (Outers Foul-Out) to get all the heavy leading out (including deep down inside the pits if there are any pits to your bore) without using a lot of elbow grease. I remember people talking about making up one of such using the replacement chemicals that are sold for the kits (Midsouth or Midway or Grafs) a steel rod from the hardware store, some "O" rings, a rubber plug with a rod-sized hole half way through it and using a small 1/2 amp 12 volt car battery charger to shoot the pulsating DC current to it.



I have shot the worst of heavy leading out with a string of jacketed bullets followed by a much easier scrubbing session with the curly kate copper mop followed by a copper solvent to get all the copper out of the bore.



I have done this on one bore when I simply pushed a whole string of dead-soft slugs too too fast through a rough bore and leaded up the entire thing pretty badly from one end to the other. It was a real mess.



Beware, if there is any rust pitting in that bore you are going to push leading down into those pits doing the jacketed bullet trick. Then it is hell getting the pits cleaned out again (I wound up firelapping that particular bore to stop it from leading).



The very best recomendation was Felix's -- use gas checks and a good bullet lube and keep your speeds reasonable and simply don't let it happen in the first place.



Me, I currently use the copper mop material wound around an old bristle brush as it is fairly quick and I don't have to do it all that often anyway. The exercise serves to remind me to keep things more reasonable in the future.



Oldfeller

Ok, your feelings are what you feel and I certainly can accept that. You don't have to like me or any other poster who posts here. We all just need to have enough self-control to treat each other decently.

No one but Paul Hale has the right to say anything about another poster's "usefullness" or "goodness". Paul Hale is the moderator here (and a good one) and you will notice he does not pass judgement in public on these sorts of matters. He sets a good example for us to follow.

But really, can't we at least try to act decently to each other in public? Can't we all see it damages the mood of the entire group? I'll even go first.

Oldfeller

I'm new here. Been casting best part of 30 years. If this forum is lame, it is because you guys are talking about why the board is lame, not cast boolits.

Besides not making a bullet/lube/powder charge combination that lays the lead down, any of you guys got a good way of getting lead left behind in the bore out???? Remember, I been castin' for 30 years, so I have seen most of the answers, and applied them one more than one occasion, is there something that doesn't end with "and apply a lot of elbow grease"????? I'm older and lazier than I once was.

Kelly I suggest you read all your drivel end to end.. your changes in attitude and the name calling. Put yourself on the end of that stick and see how it makes you feel. I am tired of your moods swings.. the long, boring posts that have nothing to do with cast shooten. Then you come to your senses and delete a good deal of it. You sound like some edition of 'all my kids'-- enough is enough. I've been more than patient with your ramblings per mold design and off topic wanderings. You have chip on your shoulder about what.. I do not care. Your not worth the time it takes to type a reply really... I'm done feeling sorry for you.

well, I suppose one reason is the fact that I am a gut shot Confederate.

I hung out at the Aimoo site until the self righteous cried 'foul' because one man let his wife censor the site and whined because such items as tits or titties or some other heretofore unknown anatomical part was mentioned. Then the resident preacher got on the stump bemoaning the lack of morals and the rest of the herd soon followed them over the precipice. I opted out and as of yet, ain't nobody seemed to notice.

Lameness is the result of black and white discussions in a colored world. If everything must be attended to as if addressing the Ladies auxillary group, then you can expect a ho-hum discussion and participation.

Now if a bullet design resembles a penis, what's wrong with voicing it, rather than just thinking it? If a man is so damned red faced at the mere mention of this, wonder what he has done all his life everytime he has relieved himself. You think a woman doesn't know what one looks like? They've looked them over up close and personal more than any owner ever has. HAR! Geezus, these folks need to get a life and crawl out from under the rock they're hiding under.

Another thing is the beating to death of certain subjects. Take the 6.5 debate. Damnit, it's a dead horse, you can quit killing it. Not a thing mysterious about the diameter, it's the fact that the rifling twist is too damned steep. DUH! No need in going on with the 'what if's'. The fact is Rhubarb, it won't work. It got to the place that the questions sounded like a child asking why you hammered on the blunt end of a nail instead of the pointy end......well because. But WHY, they'd ask. Damnit Gumby, just BECAUSE!

Now, if you want life instead of lamness, let everybody have their say, use some common sense and bring fresh ideas to the table. Sure enough, some neophyte is going to show up wanting to know what it takes to make his thutty-thutty shoot them thar casted led bulleks. Nothing wrong with that, just doesn't require another complete and unabridged discourse starting with the complete history of Pb projectiles and the life story of John Barlow and the founding of Ideal Bullet moulds and the subsequent purchase by Lyman Gunsight Company. Just the facts, ma'am, is all that is required. Anything beyond that and you're preaching to a very bored choir.

There are folks in attendence here and at Aimoo that have forgotten more than most of us will ever know and they deserve a place in the Cast Bullet Hall of Fame, Felix for one, just for his bullet lube alone, which he has so generously shared with all who ask. Then there are other like myself, who spoke up and said the fast powder requirement for cast bullets is bullshit and nothing more. Little things like this allowed others to think outside the box and expand their horizons and enjoyment. if you get an idea...then try it and then share it. That is what makes for exciting and sometimes amusing, reading.

Jump,



Welcome back -- don't let them silly mindless self-appointed flocking censor birds get to you, buddy -- just gently pop them a few times in those inflamed red wattles of theirs and they'll calm down pretty quick.



Carpetman gets the prize, he popped his particular red wattled pile-on on the chin 5-6 times in a row right smartly and didn't even kill him once (even though every shot was a fair dinkum hit to that censor bird's enflamed ego & pride).



Our Moderators took great pride in shooting only to warn (not to hit) although several of the shrieking moulettes were right properly embarassed when they actually stopped and READ the source material and figured out it was just an innocent double-entendre about lubricating pellets. Penny-Plinker, she stuffed her game bag with brace after brace of them moulette birds over that one, let me tell you buddy. That girl can hunt.



As far as maintaining "poster freedom", the snipe hunt has been offically recognized as a means of controlling the excessive flocking of self-appointed censorial birds.



We can hunt the two main groupings of censor birds legally now all year long now, within certain limits. We can't use the double barrel 12 gauge shotgun on young moulettes and young tostesterone-pumped pile-ons -- non-fatal air guns are our approved tools for them now (got to let them grow up and mate after all).



Big ol' bull snipes now, we can use pistols and .410 shotguns on them as a fully mature snipe wouldn't necessarily even feel a subtle air-gun pellet going through his tough scarred leather-like wattles.



The main thing is all these excitable young judgemental flocking birds get properly educated NOT TO JUDGE their fellow poster-man. JUDGING EACH OTHER is what leads to massive fusses and people getting all hacked off at each other. If you teach your young posters NOT TO JUDGE each other, you prevent a lot of problems for your list.



Judgement belongs solely to the real moderators, not to you or to me. And you will notice that real moderators are very slow to judge and when they do they are very discete in how they rebuke (privately and off-line).



Now, education time. A moulette is a non-native bird who flies in to screech about something that they just read, not knowing any of the background and having failed to even read up on the earlier posts of the thread.



They JUDGE purely on their surface reaction to the last things said (they respond really well to baiting and coo'ing BTW and you can call them in from afar just like crows). The root word is French, but you can pronounce it like "mullet" and be close enough. There is a good example of one of such up above, if you care to go look at it.



Pile-ons are like blue jays, very agressive in their local clan groups and they fly straight in to peck at the eyeballs once they get all pumped up with tostesterone and their waddles get all plumped up and red with "righteous" rage.



At that stage they don't really care about right, wrong, restraint, consideration, appropriateness or anything else -- they are into WINNING at all costs. They tend to use "protecting our territory" type attack patterns. Swiss Rifles is an excellent example of a big flock of pile-ons in action, lead by an "offical" head snipe.



Once recognized, just tease and laugh at them. Ask them what they are protecting? They are completely out of control and soon begin to realize how embarassing their behavior really is. "Protecting" electronic turf ??? How silly.



None of these are trolls, they are just good people temporarily exibiting abberant behavior. It's the next two classes you really need to be careful about.



===========================================================

WARNING: Hazardous Material

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I read this next part and realize that being able to talk about this next topic at all treads on the proper turf of a real Moderator. I could be properly accused of being JUDGEMENTAL and possibly even "sniping" to even discuss it out loud at all. So I am careful to keep things generic and only talk about behaviors.



However, also understand that I asked Paul Hale about this in advance and was told "someone should speak up". So I am an idiot and I spoke up.



Please don't shoot me, I am NOT A MODERATOR and I won't even name a name about nothing, much less what follows.



I am talking about certain behaviors here -- you got to jump up on the table and cram your foot down inside this shoe to claim it. You got to volunteer to be offended about what your read next. And you would be an idiot if you did so as you would be exposing your own guilt.



There are folks who judge other posters both repeatedly and habitually. We call them snipes. There are normal snipes, who just pass judgment their fellow posters all the time and there are more serious "jr. moderator" snipes and unfortunately there can be TROLLS.



Passing JUDGEMENT on your fellow poster like you had some sort of right to do so makes you a snipe. There are various degrees of snipe, they are self-explaintory by their names.



Now, you have to wonder about any sort of normal snipe being upset when Hotmail goes off-line for a day. People who do snipe and use multiple handles / personalities to do so, they are generally referred to as trolls.



Trolls are properly the responsability of a real offical Moderator. If the moderator will gently discipline his moulettes, pile-ons and lesser-snipes while they are still young, perhaps possibly they won't grow up to be habitual snipes or worse, trolls.



=======================================================



Now, if you ignore these classes and symptoms of censor bird behaviours two things can happen to your list. Your list gets rancorous and ill from having to "deal with it" and people move away because it is "always something going on" over there.



Or, worse, they start using the IGNORE FEATURE on each other and soon the list is like an echo chamber even though ostensibly there are still people there. And people start to post threads about "Why is this list so lame?".



(Sound familiar? Hello .... Hello .....)



So, you got your Valentine's wish -- you got all your folks back on your list (even Jumptrap & Starmetal). You get another chance.



To keep them back you have to NOT JUDGE EACH OTHER and NOT SNIPE at each other. Got to watch out for those outsider birds flying in to moulette or pile-on to your normal discussions as that activity can start JUDGEMENT to going again and that destroys the trust between your members ....



(which is what old Shooters was about -- you might be off a bit sometimes but you felt the trust that was there carrying you right on past it).



And everybody (myself included) needs to be very careful going on out into the future. This list needs to rebuild the trust between its members again. And turn off your damn IGNORE FEATURE -- it is part of keeping the problem going.



Love and lots of chocolate for everybody on Valentine's day -- somebody had to be crazy enough to actually say this stuff out loud and it was me (so please forgive me).



Oldfeller

Exellent Oldfeller I love it when we get focused on the topic at hand.

It was the stringy mess against the root of the lands and grooves, you know, that nasty stuff that seems like it won't ever come out. Did it with the modern version of copper scrub pads...those ever present green wooly things. Cut into a rectangle 3/4" x 1 1/2", centered on the breech of that 45-70 and shoved it through with a shotgun rod and patch eye for same, worked pretty well this PM, I also coated the pads with IOSSO bore cleaner, the stuff in a toothpaste tube, I just hate scrubbing. One day I'll quit spending money on guns, molds, powder and primers and get me one of them new fangled electic cleaners...or so I've been telling myself for the last ten years......I like Felix's idea, but on occasion there are....shall we say....unforseen consequenses.....Sound like a politician don't I . Scrubbed hard, got it out, ready to go again, just need to add a bit of Slick 50 or such to my pan lube before the next shootin' session. Thanks Oldtimer, Good Shooting, JP

JP,



I never heard of somebody using a modern "scrubbie" pot scrubber pad to go after leading before. You might consider that some brands of scrubbies actually incorporate some carborundum grit in that nylon/rubber stringly fiber matrix. The 3M brand does, as you can buy the same sort of stuff as wood sanding media and in big discs as floor refinishing media.



http://products3.3m.com/catalog/us/en001/utilities_telecom/electrical_contractors/node_GS1LJP3DHCbe/root_GST1T4S9TCgv/vroot_GSBCDFDZ1Zge/gvel_GS6QXQ8XMTgl/command_AbcPageHandler/theme_us_electricalcontractors_3_0



I was really just talking about the old copper "lathe turning" type scouring pads, some brand names are Chore Boy or Curly Kate. The "turnings" have relatively sharp thin edges and can really get underneath and peel out some lead in a hurry. They have both stainless steel ones and copper ones available but I would only use the copper ones in a barrel I really liked.



Oldfeller

That I was not aware of, most of this stuff is sold as being teflon safe, so I didn't question using it at all. I will get some of that copper wool scrub pad, just used the other because that is what I have at hand. I used to use a product that was a cloth with a mild abrasive impregnated into it for lead removal, worked really well and didn't damage a the barrel, at least so far as I could ever tell. I can't remember who made that, but i know it can still be found in Midways catalogue in cleaning products. I don't mind the idea of light abrasives, we are not talking about using them for every cleaning, just removing deposits from mistakes. In such an instance, I doubt the barrel is affected any more and probably less than by a lapping job. Just a thought, Good Shooting, JP