I can't respond to everything in this post, but again this is MOST intersting reading.

Cast another 60+ this evening, still had about 12 with fins. I'll take the whole lot and sort, weigh, trim etc and go from there.

Pix of hbc next.

Here is one of 6 or 8 final pages from 17megs of drawings.

If I'm lucky, the post will be in the same format as on a couple of other boards.

Tim,

Would it be possible to send me a PM with a better file of the print? The picture's good but I can't read the numbers, thanks.

Hi Lloyd, yes it is me and it's good to see you're still involved with cast bullets. I hope your health is holding up and that you're enjoying life. You have a heck of a lot of knowledge about this stuff and it's nice to see you putting it out there.


Pat

Why did I KNOW that you'd ask for a better print?

Of course. If I can do an attachment it'll be there, otherwise I'll send my email so you can send me your email.

I'll create a jpg from the original drawings.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by trk:
Why did I KNOW that you'd ask for a better print?

Because you're smarter than the average bear!

Pat

quote:

Originally posted by Pat I.:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by trk:
Why did I KNOW that you'd ask for a better print?

Because you're smarter than the average bear!

Pat

Only my tusch is smarter!
PM - I assume 'private message'.
Never done that on THIS forum, haven't found it yet. A quicker way is for you to send me your email - mine's covbldrs and then AT and then nrvi.net .

Pat - thanks, first drawing headed your way.

See the ongoing discussion - interesting to see some getting sub MOA others leaving it.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?p=49864&posted=1#post49864

Tim,

Thanks for pointing me in the direction of the other forum. I have to admit the picture of the group is impressive but I noticed it's at 50 yds. Still a good showing although with the load that's listed on the picture it can't be pushing it too hard, probably around the 15 or 16 hundred fps mark other people say the bullet shoots good at.

I doubt I'll get any different results than anyone else but I am looking forward to getting the mould now.

Thanks Again, Pat

I think the concensus thus far is that it does sub MOA soft and under 1700-2000 and HARD is needed for higher velocities.

It's raining, snow tomorrow. Going to the gun show, will see if anyone there has a sizer larger than .311". I'll probably modify the lube-sizer to do push through since I've got so many H&I dies.

Pat - you're changing my life. I took the 40x out today and launched 3 groups of 200 gr bore riding SAECO linotype cast w/gc. Three loads. It was the first time in 40 years I'd done any serious target work in rifles (under .375 or .45 caliber) with cast bullets. Got some improving to do. Scope didn't have a 50 yard setitng for parallax, so it was blurry. It was raining, with little wind. One of the groups (12, 13, 14gr of Unique) looked promising.

I need to make/get a sizing die to minimally size the HBC (don't like what happens in .310 or .311). I'd like to do the minimum damage to it and let the rest get sized on firing.

One step at a time.

Tim,

Glad to hear our conversation helped add another thing in your life to keep you busy. If the gun's a 308 you should look at the match results on the CBA web site to see what loads are being used and always try to use some kind of wind indicator even it's nothing more than a ribbon tied to a stick. I'd be willing to bet one hell of a lot of good loads were pitched aside because of the wind. Varget seems to be the powder of choice in the 308.

I'm expecting the HBC mould soon and will let you know what happens. The best way to size this thing and seat the check without damage is a push through die and the easiest and cheapest way to do that is use a Lee. I'll put the lube on with my finger and see if it shoots before I do any pan lubing.

Take Care,
Pat

Thanks, Pat.

I used to shoot M14 in competition at Quantico. Agree with you on wind. I control it here by going to the range only when I see the weather guesser saying only 3-4 mph. The range is sheltered and that controls ONE variable.

I'll run two (or more) groups with relationship to sizing. I think I'll do better unsized, but testing is the only way of knowing. Working on neck tension right now. Now that I know where it prints with 200gr bullets, I'll move out to 100 yards.

The 40x is stainless in 7.62 N - almost the same as 308. Choat ultimate sniper stock and a 6-18x scope on top. It will do 1/2" groups at 100 when I get serious.

My preference is going from the known to the unknown - changing one variable at a time. That's why I'm starting with the SAECO 308 because it's a standard bullet and I get easing loading with good engraving on the nose.

Tim,

If you don't mind I'd like to make a suggestion. Get a piece of soft lead, a .330 muzzle loader ball works good, and tap it up into the throat so you know what diameter it actually is and then size the bullet in a die .001 smaller. The 308, and I assume the 7.62 Nato, has a ball seat throat and I think fitting the bullet to the throat is going to give you a lot better chance of success right off the bat than messing with neck tension. In my opinion and from what I've seen bullet fit to the throat is one of the most important things for cast accuracy.

I got the HBC mould today (thanks Paul) and I have a question you might be able to answer since you were in on the design. Why are the lube grooves cut like crimping grooves? Can't see anything to be gained and maybe some to be lost. Neat looking thing but it sure has a long unsupported nose on it!!

Pat

Pat -

I did a chamber cast (using cerobase - similar to cerosafe). Superimposed the HBC as designed just engaging the rifling.



That brings to my attention that I'd cast a bunch before that were 0.310 diameter where the last batch was 0.313 . So, it's back to the mould, as the 0.310 will fit perfectly as designed. Must have either been the switch to lino from ww (or mystery metal) or temperature at which cast (hot on last batch) or a bur on the mould.

Then the 0.310 sizing die will just polish the bullet and seat the check.

Lube grooves were designed to reduce drag (vs grooves with steeper angle).

Shape was a) copied from Speer 200 gr (which had relatively high bc) and b) was chosen for bc to enable the overall bullet weight to be in the 190-210 grain range for a standard 30 cal.

Pat - had a chance to pour any yet?

I'm taking it slow, I'll get back to casting soon.

One step at a time, I started measuring runout on the cases, full and neck sized. I found that I was getting way too much on the neck sized cases and will procure something in the straight line style. I'd like to align the bullet as close as possible to being coaxial as I can.

Tim,

Haven't gotten around to casting any yet but will this weekend. Have you thought about forming a couple of cases out of 06 brass? You'd have to neck turn I'm sure but you should have plenty of brass to make the neck tight. Only 308 I have is a Ruger International and I don't think an 18 1/2 inch full stocked rifle would be a good test bed for anything or I'd try it myself.

I'll keep you informed as to what's going on and hope you'll do the same

Pat

308 from '06. Agree that would give plenty of brass to play with, and I do neck turn. It would be fun as a precursor to compare a small lot of those to a small lot of 'typical' neck thickness cases to determine potential differences.

At the moment I'm playing with a P17 WInchester with a 2 groove barrel; and teaching a friend to use his '03 out to 500 yards. Probably a 4 month project, so I've sorted brass into brands and will be using Rem for his and Win or Fedreal for mine. His is scoped, mine still proudly wears the original peep sights, so I'll revert to the 40x when we get beyond 100 yards.

So now I'm at the beginning stages of getting GOOD at case length trimming with 4 or 500 cases in the que.

All this to get good enough to do justice to the HBC. Your help and comments are most welcome, as this is a casual but real-life project to maximize accuracy with the HBC (and hone my other skills in the process).

Tim, I got around to casting a few HBC bullets today and checked the fit in my 30 ppc barrel. It looks like they'll work in the throat and I'll even be able to put a little taper on the first band to help line it up. Don't know when I'll get around to shooting them but it shouldn't be too long. Keep you posted.

I'm trying to include a picture of the bullet in the PPC case but don't know how so am taking a stab at it.



Pat

I'm trying again.

Hmmm - whisperish!

Looks like a loooong throat.

Well, I fired up the lead pot and cast a couple of dozen more - after cleaning the mould. Measured .309 warm. Should be about right, but had some finning at the nose on a few. We'll see what they weigh. I'd like to just seat the gas check and lube without much distortion. So I'm planning on seating and minimal sizing first, then oven heat treating and then lube.

Spent odd hours reloading half a dozen calibers in hundreds - paying attention as never before.

Snow tomorrow and windy, should be a good loading day.

C1PNR - jpgs on the way. I scanned in 4 prints of the designs. Offer is still open - if anyone wants jpg's I'll email (my email is posted in a post not too far above this one).

This has been a good project for getting me back into being serious about cast boolet accuracy! I'm even working up loads for a .375 Win (Ruger #3 setup for Schuetzen that I've had for about 6 years and not yet fired.)

I have 100 cast up and ready to shoot. I lubed them in an oversized die and ran them through a Lee sizer with no discernable damage. For alloy I'm using mould quenched WW and for lube LBT just in the bottom groove and the one over the check. The mould casts about .003 out of round so I put an index mark on it up by the tip. The top punch was the one I made for my 6.5 bullet and it worked out alright. If the thing shoots half way decent I'll make one specifically for this bullet.

It's colder than a well diggers a$$ right now here in Chicago so I'll wait for a warm up before trying it out.

Pat

I loaded two batches of 25 tonight. Sized .310 just touching the sides. 5 different weights of powder 5 rds each for each batch. One was WW and the other lino. Alox/BW lubed as you did, Pat. Seated out to just engage rifling - looked like a smooth ring of contact and light engraving by the rifling. Lake City Match cases, used Lee collet neck sizer for the first time. Crimped at top of first lube groove. Used AA2215BR, starting at 28gr.

Snowing. Wind. Cold. Maybe next weekend.

Gave up on 2215. All over the place. Tried one load of 7459 - got it down to 8 of 8 onto a 3x5 at 50 yards. Need to do much better before pictures of targets get posted.

It has been a good experience, as I've not gotten really serious about cast high-accuracy rifle bullets. .458WM 485gr isn't normally shot at LONG distances, nor does one often do 5 and 10 shot groups from the bench.

So it's back to changing ONE thing and firing a few groups and repeating.

I did find that it did MUCH better than the Lyman 31141 - but that was most likely due to the nose being very much undersized.

I'm trying to shoot control groups of similar weight bullets and using more than one rifle with each load to accelerate the process of finding the right combination.

About to start again. Worked up shooting and loading skills in j-bullets (7.62 Nato) to 19 three shot groups in a row under an inch at 100yds averaging .64".

Today I'll cast a BUNCH - one big batch to oven harden and play with.

Time moves along, but ONE step at a time.

Cast a bunch. Sorted by weight. NEED to heat treat (guess how I know).

I've recently posted here, over on Cast Boolits, and in the Cast Bullets forum at handloads.com of my recent good successes with the HBC sized .311" of oven treated and quenched wheelweights and lubed with either Johnson's Paste Wax or White Lightning bicycle chain lube at 2000 FPS velocities from my .300 Weatherby Magnum Vanguard and K-31 Swiss, using IMR 7383 surplus powder. (I'm calling 2 to 2 1/2 MOA accuracy successful.) I also found an excessive load in the Swiss that sprayed the bullets all over the paper at about 2250 FPS and gave sticky extraction. It can be overdone. Having found that my K-31 has a square faced reduction of the chamber from neck diameter to .308", I'll next try sizing to .308".

I seem to recall from old discussions of the .30 HBC that there was an earlier 8mm HBC. If anyone has one of those moulds they'd like to part with, I'd sure like to hear about it!

There may well have been an 8mm HBC, but from conversations with Aladin (Jay) we designed this one directly from the Speer 200 gr soft point bullet -- as it had the .5 BC shape we wanted.

I remember him saying that.

Has anyone tested the .30 HBC to see what sort of BC it actually has in practice?