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What is the max OAL that'll function thru these 94's and 336's-- with a bullet seated backwards minus the check seated? Or with that blunt wide nose-- how long a loaded cartridge will work thru the action? Anyone know the length of the 200 gr Lee 30 cal bullet? I show 1.036 minus a seated check. TIA. | ||
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Aladin, I find I'm pretty much limited to the book OAL of 2.550" in both 336 and Win 94 (pre 64 model). Slightly longer will cycle but not eject. Win 94 2.550 or very slightly over will cycle thru the action. Won't chamber however (you knew that). Mine ejects at about 2.236" OAL. Boolit is shoved back that much. Pretty much same for the 336 microgroove. 2.575" cycled, any longer won't eject. If I chamber these, the boolit is shoved back to about 2.24-2.25". My Lee 200RF or whatever we called the special order mold measures 1.148" long w/o gc. It weighs about 214 sans check. Regards, Woody | |||
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Thanks Woody-- you've also given me a pretty uniform throat length too. | |||
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Agree with Woody - I took a round loaded with the Saeco 200 gr. COAL of 2.577 - went through the loading port (Win 94 post 64 pre cross-slide safety) and cycled well. It did just barely hang up on attempt to eject. The Saeco will not go into the rifling - nose is too big; but it does VERY well in the old Stevens bolt action. | |||
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Howdy Aladin- Based on your inquiry - would it be correct to think you may be contemplating a new design? I have a couple .30-30's where a new CB design may be of interest. If so - I'd be interested to hear what it is you may have in mind! Best regards- | |||
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Quote: Yes Sky something will be in the works... but I have to get this HBC out and delivered. Actually it's about slow now, order goes in next week and then the wait for the cut. Thinking 200 grs+.. 75% or so meplat dia..with a semi-unique twist/variation methinks...should hammer them. Call it the big brother of 31141/311041 and maybe more accurate... And in the far wings... a mold for the Buffalo Classic. I think all my reshapin' and resizing and 'speriment'n is DONE-- finally. Sky you have a mold very very similar to it...  | |||
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Been looking for a heavier than the 311041. My stepdad always liked the 303 Savage BECAUSE the factory loading was heavier than what was available for the 30-30 (for deer). The Saeco 200 works well in the Stevens - does what I want, but the bore riding nose is just a whisker too big to chamber in the '94. | |||
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TRK. Try the RCBS #30-180-FN. In my alloy, (10 pounds wheelweights, one pound linotype, 1/3 cup chilled bird shot and a three foot peice of 95/5 percent lead free solder.) I get a bullet that weighs on average 189.9 gr. Methinks that's close enough to the original 190 gr. .303 savage bullet to do the job. And yes, it does smack deer down right nicely. Twenty-eight gr. of W-748 duplicates the Savage load for velocity in a 20" barrel. (1950 FPS) I would imagine it does about 2100 FPS from a 26" barrel, but I haven't chronographed it from my longer barreled rifles yet. I size mine at .310" Bullet is about 14 BHN as cast and can be oven treated to about 30 BHN. Straight wheelweights are about 12 BHN as cast, IIRC. Paul B. | |||
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Quote: Paul how long is that RCBS 180 and does any of the shank have to go into the powder using a 30/30 case? TIA. | |||
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I'd have to go out and measure it, but seated to the crimping groove, the base is right at the junction of the shoulder and neck, The gas check doesn't protrude into the powder area. It feeds without problem in every 30-30 lever gun I own. (7 rifles, 6 Winchesters and one Marlin.)E-mail me a snail mail addy and I'll send you a few to try. let me know if you need them lubed and sized. Paul B. | |||
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Paul if you could measure that bullet at your convenience and post the length's that'd do. Distance from the forward edge of the crimp groove going both ways would help. Thanks. | |||
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Aladin. Hope this is what you need. Bullet over all length with gas check is 1.019" From base to crimp groove, .528". From crimp groove to nose, .491" Paul B. | |||
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Them's the numbers Paul. Thanks! | |||
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Aladin, A couple of my .30-30 rifles will feed, chamber and eject cartridges loaded to 2.59" o.a.l. and the others 2.56" o.a.l. I have the same mold that Paul has and it is a very, very good heavy cast bullet for the .30-30. I bought it in 1980 and have made many, many bullets with it over the years. My mold drops bullets with the following dimensions: meplat diameter: .20" nose diameter in w.w. + 2% tin: .301" driving band diameter in w.w. + 2% tin: .3105" distance from bullet nose to top of crimp grove: .505" o.a.l. w/gas check: 1.025" It has 3 grease grooves measuring .05" wide x .02" deep in addition to 1 crimp groove. With this bullet seated to an o.a.l. of 2.530" (case length 2.03" + .505" bullet length forward of the crimp groove) the forward end of the gas check is just inside the case neck. My favorite powder with this bullet for full power loads is W760 or H414. A capacity load of 36 grs. will push this bullet close to 2,200 f.p.s. in a 26" barrel with very good accuracy. I have shot this bullet out to 420 yards on the NRA High Power rifle silhouette steel turkeys with very good results from my .30-30's. Sincerely, w30wcf | |||
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Aladin, After making the above post, I remembered buying and "Old West" bullet mold several years ago that makes a 205 gr. .30 caliber bullet in w.w. + 2% tin alloy. It is 1.110" long w/gas check. The meplat diameter is .16". This bullet has 2 grease grooves, and a crimping groove. I had taken some of these bullets last year, chucking them in a lathe and cutting a .22" diameter meplat nose on them. I dug up a few that I had still had, and they measure 1.06" long and weigh 200.2 grains. The front of the gas check is about .03" below the neck, but using slow burning W760/H414 accuracy is still very good. I can forward you a sample if you would be interested. w30wcf | |||
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Aladin- W30WCF, AKA John Kort, knows a thing or two about the .30-30. I think his input will prove useful. The 'specs' you've outlined are very interesting & I think I'd be interested in laying hold of one or a couple of these. W30WCF- Can you post a picture of the modified OW bullet? I'd sure like to get a peek at what this looks like. Thanks- Sky C. | |||
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w30wcf sure I'd like a sample. You have my addy per the HBC run. Appreciate it. I could post a pic if you have one or take one here and post it, if you didn't have a camera or hosting URL. Sky your most correct... using experienced input is the way to go. My thinking was to only insert the check past the neck/shoulder junction say .040" In this way no lube would touch the powder as the check bearing surface length is .075 on average I believe [I'll 'check' that  ] and would be the only thing going in. | |||
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Aladin- Just a thought as you give consideration to the bullet length issue. Brass length - it sometimes varies and unfortunately - on the short side. I haven't bought measured any recent .30WCF brass but there a number of other calibers I've been playing with that are coming up considerably short (for newly manufactured WW brass) vs. the recommended "trim to" lengths suggested in the manuals. Might not be a bad idea to leave the bullet just a wee bit shorter to allow for such. Just a thought for your consideration. Best regards- Sky | |||
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Sky I had the minimum length in mind- but I know what your saying. Might be a good idea to agree on a 'case OAL' going in..? | |||
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Sky C., Sorry, I currently don't have a way to post a picture but I would be happy to send you a sample if you want to PM me your address. It is a very good idea to base the design on known case lengths. I would suggest, though to base it on the maximum which, in my case, is 2.050" or thereabouts. With .50" of bullet out of the cartridge that would put the cartridge o.a.l. at 2.550" which is just about the right length. Then, with the standard case length of 2.02-2.03, it would only be .02-.03" shorter. Aladin, I'll forward a bullet sample to you later this week. w30wcf | |||
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What would be benefical to a potential 30 cal heavy for hunting is the throating dimensions on the lever action 30/30's. Then the variation in groove dia's-- Marlin and Winchester. --my idea is a 90% of caliber meplat, a big brother if you will to 31141/311041-- with something new, or at least not seen on this type of bullet. The alignment of the bullet to the bore is via a 'DD' surface just before the bullet goes to the wide 'plat. 'DD' is just a ring of bore ride area that engraves vs the whole rider shank engraving. Chambers easier and still aligns better because it's further out to the end. --90% meplat to maximize the SMACK when venision is contacted. We always hear these accounts of the cast slug going thru or penetrating almost full length of the animal-- so why not dump MORE energy into making that channel when said bullet travels thru...? Ballistic coefficent is meaningless at these distances-- and we're only giving up a few points never to be seen in bullet drop close in. --2 cavity. Few want the full 6'er and the cost doubles. --check below the neck area. Good point, but with the modern lubes of today I do not think this is a major consideration. Could be worked in though-- I had figured on this originally [check in neck]. But employing a .080 check shank means much less than .1gr of lube just before the check on the shank-- nothing to hurt powder even IF it melted, which would only happen using runny lubes OR leaving the ammo sitting in the sun for a period of time. But.. methinks a 200 gr'r otta a 30/30 at 2000 fps+ with a .280" meplat would smack them right nicely.. [?]. Your comments/inputs. | |||
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Aladin, All of my leverguns will chamber the 311041 bullet with one driving band (.310" dia.) showing. The tightest bore any of my rifles have is .299" and the largest, .302". A .301 nose dia. bullet will chamber in the .299" bore a ok, but this rifle has been fired 4,000 + times. In my newest .30-30 Winchester (about 1,000 rounds so far) with a .300" bore a .301" bullet will chamber with just a wee bit of resistance. I feel that a .28" meplat may be a bit much for accurate shooting to, say, 150 yards and might be a bit touchy in feeding from the magazine. I would opt for a .25" meplat which actually more than doubles the area of the .17" meplat of the famous 311041 (.049 vs .023 sq. inches). I took some gas checked & lubed bullets made from my 311620 mold (301620 paper patched modified to conventional form) chucked a few in the lathe and cut a .25" dia. nose on them. The bullet o.a.l. was reduced to 1.075" from 1.375" and the weight was reduced to 207.5 grains from 225 grs. The alloy is w.w. + 2% tin. For comparison, I cut 1 bullet to a .28" diameter nose. o.a.l. was 1.03 and the weight was 201 grs. As far as the final bullet weight goes on your project, you may want to shoot for a bullet that would weigh 200 grs. in 50/50 alloy (lino & ww). In w.w.& 2% tin the same bullet would weigh 204 grs. and in plain w.w., 205.5 grs. This week I will try cycling both the .28" and .25" diameter nosed bullets through both of my Marlins and 3 of my Winchesters. Next weekend, if the weather cooperates, I will test them for accuracy @ 100 yards at both 1600 and 2000 f.p.s. velocity and see how the accuracy is and let you know. w30wcf | |||
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"I feel that a .28" meplat may be a bit much for accurate shooting to, say, 150 yards and might be a bit touchy in feeding from the magazine. I would opt for a .25" meplat which actually more than doubles the area of the .17" meplat of the famous 311041 (.049 vs .023 sq. inches" Ok-- now figure the squ inches of a .280 'plat-- another big jump in area. One of the first items on this thread.. Paul B reverse seated a non checked bullet and this wide flat cleared all his guns at the 30/30's OAL of 2.55" A bullet with a .280 plat goes thru Wingryo using my specific gravity formula for ww alloy and flies fine thru a 12 twist. You mention 150 yrds but I think the majority with a 30/30 confines shots to 100 yds or less [?]. Yet the '280' would fly to 150-- really no real difference for flight between it and the '250' flat. No problem BTW with querries about the .280-- just stating the case for it. Thing to do would be cut some 311284's off at .280 area on the nose and shooten them. Any volunteer's for that 'speriment? Or send me samples of '284' with a 301+ rider? Obvious test bed is the Lee 200 cut to a flat nose. But that involves lathe work. | |||
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Aladin- I've sent you a PM on your regular e-mail acct with info to log into a personal page. I've posted a couple drawings of chamber cast info for a 50's vintage Winchester '94 & a Marlin 336CB (w/Ballard type rifling). Dimensions there may be of some use for the project. As for meplat dia... My personal preference is in line with W30WCF. 80% meplat seems a good place to be. Though a hunting bullet won't be pushed to great distance - every now and then it's just fun to let sail at them longer range targets with your hunting load. I know this is no "long range" bullet - but would like it to have enough form stability to remain stable out yonder anyhow. Your project of course so choose as you like. Re: tests w/ the LEE 200 gr. - seems like careful use of a file would do the same as a lathe if you're just looking to widen the meplat... (?) Best regards- Sky C. | |||
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Looked the pics over Sky and sent you an e. Nice BTW. Thing is... this DE-sign is something more than a .280 'plat. A twist or two coming.... Looking it over I think a Lee 180 would serve better being closer to the OAL to be used. Now by 'vetting' a bullet methinks ya got to shooten some and I don't like filing much. Anyone have a Lee 180 30 cal which has a bore ride dia on the small side? Something .300 or smaller? | |||
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Aladin, Sky C, I had also thought about modifying the 311284 and trying it but I shot most of the ones I made last year at the 1,000 yard steel buffalo and only have a few left. (A .30-30 @ 1,000 yards? You betcha!) I do have a supply of the 311620 bullets so that will be the one I will try with both meplat dia's. I did chuck a 311284 bullet up in the lathe and cut the nose to a .280" diameter, then cut the gas check shank length to .085" long. The resultant bullet is 1.04" long and weighs 200.5 grs. with no gas check in w.w. + 2% tin. Add a gas check - 205.5 grs. I then took a fine file and cut a slight 1/4" or so ogive which reduced the bullet weight to 199 grains (204 w/gas check). I'll send that along with the other bullet samples. The area of a .28" meplat is .062 or about a 25% increase over the .25". The .25" meplat does, however, have over a 100% increase in area over the current 311041 which is a proven harvestor. . The .25" metplat is a little more shapely (!) but as Sky C. indicated, it is your project. Sorry, but I don't have a 180 gr. Lee bullet mold. I do have the Lee 170 gr. but the bore ride dia. is .302". | |||
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Quote: I gotta here about shooten the '284 @ 1000.... that sounds cool.. How much elevation? Irons or scope? The 'hole story please. | |||
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Aladin, I posted a short story about it back in Sept., 2003 at the leverguns site. http://leverguns.sixgunner.com/topic.asp?ARCHIVE=true&TOPIC_ID=484&whichpage=1&SearchTerms=%2Cw30wcf As far as elevation, I believe I was up about 7/8" on the tang sight from a 100 yard zero. I'll have to double check. Yes it was a lot of fuunnn. Definitely way cool! w30wcf | |||
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I took Aladin's suggestion and made some more 311284's, this time from 50/50 alloy (WW / Lino). I modified them by first facing off the gas check shank, reducing it to .08" long. I then cut the bullet noses back to a .28" meplat and I also decided to try the .25" meplat to see if there would be any difference in accuracy. The modified bullet weights and lengths were: .25" meplat - 204 grs. - 1.080" long .28" meplat - 197 grs. - 1.025" long I used my '94 Winchester .30 W.C.F. carbine (20" barrel) which wears a tang sight. I loaded the cartridges with H414 powder and seated the bullets to 2.550" o.a.l. I did not chronograph this load but in a 26" barrel with the 205 gr. Old West bullet, it clocked 2,048 f.p.s. last year. Its probably doing around 1,950 in the 20" barrel. I loaded and fired 5 rounds with each meplat diameter (10 total) at 100 yards. Group sizes were as follows: .25" meplat - 2.36" (3 in 1.22") .28" meplat - 4.46" (3 in 2.71") The bullet holes were nice and round with no signs of tipping. On this day, the smaller meplat produced the better grouping. As we know, one five shot group does not tell the whole story. So in the next few weeks, I'll modify some additional bullets and shoot 2 more five shot groups with each meplat diameter. We can then average the 3 groups. At least we know know these larger meplats will work at 100 yards in a 12" twist .30-30, just as Aladin predicted they would. w30wcf | |||
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Quote: Well done. I applaud your efforts and industry. What kind of taper or angle did you use going from the meplat to the rider? I have two or three 'twists' on the .280 'flat bullet.... I wonder if Dan Mountain would cut one that way... | |||
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Aladin, Thank you for the kind words. I've always liked to experiment, I guess it is in my blood. So far, I still have all my fingers. When I cut the bullets back, I left the nose profile as is. I did not try to taper or file an ogive on the bullets for this test. In a few weeks when I have reworked some more bullets, I will file a slight ogive on them to see what kind of difference that would make. I'll keep you posted. w30wcf | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Cast Bullets 30/30 Lever owners-- a Question please?
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