I've pondered & experimented with low power loads for 30yrs, mostly with very mixed results. I've decided it's time to build something specifically for the purpose. The only big bore I've got is a 43 mauser, which has a large case capacity. In hopes that this gun could have a dual purpose I was wondering if something with a straight wall like a 444 could be used. My thinking is that a fairly heavy for bore boolit could be used & stuffed well into the case to reduce initial case capacity. Can anyone tell me if the interior of a 444 case is tapered near the same as the exterior of the case is. Other contenders could be 405 Win. etc. I have several rifle candidates for this project, so I have a lot of options. Buckshots musings on a 45acp rifle were also interesting. Anyone been there & done it already?
I keep hearing about loads where you can hear the hammer drop & I haven't reached anything like that, even @ 500'/s. I know I'll need a long barrel & a fairly large expansion ratio. The Win. Legacy in 44 mag has a 24" barrel. Any ideas appreciated. Ron.D

.......RonD, "Buckshots musings on a 45acp rifle were also interesting. Anyone been there & done it already?"

I had a Spanish Destroyer carbine rebarreled to 45 ACP, but it's not quiet :-). The SR Mauser action is lying quietly on the bench waiting to be sectioned for the 'Eventually to be done' 45 ACP thing, too.

There are 2 things about making 'quiet' ammo. The first and easiest to deal with, is for the projectile to be sub-sonic. The 2nd and hardest part is to contain the suddenly released high pressure gas. I'm sure all here have experienced this? <VBG>

So your thinking about a high expansion ratio is moving in the right direction. The quietest would have the bullet fall out of the barrel and land on the ground at our feet. Not much use in that. A prime example of what you are thinking is my MkIV Martini-Enfield 577-450 and it's 32" bbl using a 45 Colt chamber insert.

That barrel has a comparatively HUGE volumn compared to the pistol case. In addition, a common 45 cal pistol bullet @ .451/.452" comes nowhere near sealing off the barrel, let alone the distance it traverses in leaving the case and traveling down the neck of the adapter. After that, it has to negotiate a rather long and gentle leade and only then move down the barrel.

It seems pretty obvious that a portion of the propelling gas is going to skirt around said slug for a goodly distance of it's travel. What this is leading up to, is that even with all that there is a mild, dull, 'pop' as the bullet leaves the barrel. In trying to think of an example, about the best (and very close in fact) is that sound made by you slapping your hand against your thigh if wearing somewhat loose jeans.

Not readily identifiable as a sound anyone would associate with a firearm, nor a dangerous or remarkable sound. Compared to any other firearm using powder, I guess you'd consider it silent as a degree of noise. In fact I could probably fire any number off in the back yard of my suburban home and attract no interest, unless an immediate neighbor might wonder what it was.

Even an air rifle makes a sudden but soft sound as the pellet exits the muzzle, so it's NOT silent either. Many years ago, a co-worker had assembled a legal semi-auto STEN gun, and a friend of his utilized some aluminum tube to fabricate a muffler for it (probably NOT legal:-). With Winchester 147gr ammo, when you pulled the trigger you heard the bolt hit the breechface. The bolt then recoiled back and locked, ready for the next round. A kind of mild mechanical 'clack-click' sound.

Excluding this sound, the cartridge firing and the bullet in it's flight was silent. All you heard was the 'clack-click' and then a thud, as the bullet impacted the hillside. Firing a 115gr bullet got the same 'clack-click' but also a sharp crack over-riding it as the bullet broke the sound barrier.

A friend has a barrel insert for 22RF to be used in his 45-70. Since this insert is 22" long and his barrel is 30" there is some noise reduction taking place. I'd imagine, if sub-sonic ammo was used in an insert only maybe 6" long, the larger 45 cal barrel would serve to make it much quieter. Since I'm not up to buying one and cutting it back to try, I'll leave that to your imagination as far as viability goes.

.........Buckshot

Veral Smith has a good section on quiet bullets in his book...synopsis, fast powder, heavy for the bore bullets, deep seated in the case. I did some experiments with a Ruger #3 Carbine in 44 mag and was pretty successful at getting moderate striking energy with little noise.

I've been playing with this. Best luck I've had is with the 205 gr. .358 Leadheads LBT GC on 2.5 gr. Unique in a .38 Special case fired in a .357 Maximum rifle barrel. Hearing protection is not required and power and accuracy are usable. However, it isn't silent.

I also tried the 265 gr. bullets in the .38-55 with 3 gr. Bullseye (less would not get the bullet out the barrel). Pretty quiet but unusable accuracy. Imagine the sound of a muffled cap going off.

One correspondent uses the .457 cal. RB in a .45-70 case with the same 3 gr. Bullseye. Seat bullet all the way down on the powder. I've not tried that, yet...

Thanks for the excellent responses guys.
Buckshot. It's the release of gases that I'm working on, so even beans as a propellent are out. All the attempts @ military silent loads use subsonic rounds to begin with & then use suppressors to muffle the release of gases. (Delisle carbine e.g.) I would be happy with a mild noise. The practical application for this is that I live next to a large bush, & every yr. I have to eradicate 2-4 beavers that move into my pond. This is necessary because on about the 3rd day after their arrival, water starts running down my driveway, also a pair will take down 4-5 small to med. trees a week. The problem is that I have neighbours within about 100yrds. on 2 sides. I don't want to alert them or have a boolit that would go far on a ricochet. I've used a 22CB in a 26" barrelled gun for a brain shot , but that's not easily done. I've only read about destroyer carbines on the net, but never seen one for sale around here. The 577-450 sounds interesting, they can be expensive. I didn't know you could get inserts for them. That's something else for me to explore, although I wonder if escaping gases around the bullet would happen inconsistently & lead to a high ES. I guess using a soft .458 boolit sized down to .455-.456 would help.

graycg. The deep seated boolit is what I'm pondering right now. The only straight walled case that I have on hand is a .38spl. & it will take a 240 gr. boolit that fills 60% of the case. So I'm wondering if this is taken to the extreme & would work in a 444. I guess I'm just cheap, but it would give me a gun that would cover a very broad spectrum. If not your 44mag results are about what I'm looking for, depending on your definition of little noise. I don't require a silent round but certainly quieter than a hammer striking a nail for sure.

Hobie. I think I need something a little more quiet than your 38 load with 2.5grs. of Unique. Your friends sucess with the 45-70 is the sort of path I'm on at the present. Possibly a long barrel in 45-70 on a #4 Enfield or P14.

Thanks again for everyones responses. The info is helpful. Ron.D

I tried Bullseye in the .38 cases but it was not as good by any measure. The fellow in the range toilet could not hear me shooting, only about 30 yards away. Every one else nearby, some without hearing protection , immediately thought I'd had a blooper. Much advise was given as I fired my first group at 50 yards. Here's a pic of the group.

In a pistol, it is no quieter than a standard .38 load but in the rifle barrel there is a big difference, although it isn't completely silent. I used the smaller .38 Special case to reduce the powder capacity. With the relatively long 205 gr. bullet, one still has pretty good loading density. I think that Unique is also less sensitive to powder position than Bullseye.

The problem with the .38-55 load is that it was a completely different point of aim AND double the group size of the .38 load. However, these were GC bullets. I'm going to try a PB bullet AND seat it all the way down on the powder (in the case) as my friend does with his .457 RB in the .45-70.

My problem is time. Never enough.

Ron, it ain't guns but perhaps a bow or a crossbow will meet your criteria. Silent and deadly.

I used to give this idea considerable thought and decided if I ever built up a rifle it would be in .44 Special with a 28 or 30" barrel. A bloop tube for the last 6" might even be a good idea.

The problems would be horrible trajectory and very critical follow through. Matthews (Paul A., author) mentioned the latter when trying low velocity squirrel loads in his .45-70. It was his opinion that the guys writing about the concept hadn't put it into practice in the woods, as he found it unworkable.

Your best bet might actually be a long tubed .22 and exact placement. Sub sonic ammo in a 28-30" .22 would at least be accurate and with flatter trajectory than loading big bores down to a quiet level. You could get one of those flat pointer tools for the ammo.

Ron D--Yes a crossbow would work,but what you really need is a trap. You could bait it with a firewood log for larger ones and perhaps a toothpick for the real small ones. Those ceramic fake logs used in fireplaces would possibly work,if so would be reusable.

I tried silent as possible bullets once--well err uh this was for cats. Bought a house the old widow lady had been feeding all the strays. I tried wax bullets with a bb molded in and just using a primer. Started adding the most powder I could but keep noise down. Never dropped a cat but could make them run. This was in .357 mag revolver--longer barreled rifle would have possibly been better.

To my mind, having a purpose built gun is counter-productive. I want the so called silent loads to work in my rifle as is, with the current sight setting so that at 25 yards I can kill grouse, squirrels, rabbits, the odd groundhog (very odd but not unknown), etc. Deer will hear the shot but not startle as they might otherwise. This will even take turkey. Yep, I could use for other nocturnal raiders... But I'm not throwing these heavy bullets around in town. They are VERY prone to ricochet and you then have no idea where they'll end up. I don't like those odds as I want to continue shooting for the rest of my life not the alternative.

In town, the .22 CBs as made by CCI and Aguila work well on the real pests as does the Havahart and a trip to the forest... Heck, I enjoy the drive.

Valdez has it right about trajectory. Very usable to 25-30 yards, you can see in my pic above how different the POI is at 50 yards and it gets worse. The rifle used was a .357 Max sighted for 180 gr. Hornady SSPs at about 1800-1900 fps. I think these 205 gr. bullets were going about 800 fps, but didn't have the chrony along to check.



****
The above pic is supposed to be of the 25 yard group. Don't know why it isn't working, it is on the server...

[ 08-27-2003, 16:50: Message edited by: Hobie ]

Hobie. Those groups are impressive @ that range & velocity, & certainly give me reason to hope. When I say purpose built gun, I'm with you on dual purpose. I mean that although I have 20 guns, none of them are for either small or straight sided cases, other than a couple .22s & a .22mag. I'd love it if this could also double as a deer, black bear gun, that's why I'm checking into larger, straight cases such as 45-70, 444, & 405Win. If anyone here shoots these I would still like to know if the difference between neck diameter & diameter @ the web are only because of case thickening or does the case interior open a little wider as you move toward the base.
Scrounger. I have a crossbow, but somehow, I'm just a powder & primer guy at heart.
Carpetman, you give new definition to the term "wax job".
bltsandwedge.We must cut Carpetman a little slack here. As far as I can figure out, he probably only has 2 shortcomings.
1. He was probably scared by cats as a child .
2. He needs to work on his sense of humour.
Thanks again guys. Ron.D

Ron,

I think carpetmanesque humor need be encouraged! Play on topic/words are the most sophisticated forms of humor; generally symptoms of a greater psychopathology....pass the Lithium please....

Regards....

I was fireforming some 30-30 imp cases in the basement one day and thought I'd use a candle wax plug to generate pressure to blow the case out. I wrapped an old pair of jeans of over the muzzle, then put a soup can on top of that and a 1" pine board on top of that and pulled the trigger on my 12" TC. The Wax bullet went through all of it and blew a hole in the basement fluorecent light
The wife was not very ammused.
Maybe make a 38special chamber insert for a larger gun and just carry it in your pocket. Maybe if you shot it in a 12ga and the insert was 6" or so, then the 12ga barrel would slow the expanding gases down for a reduced noise.

Look close, that's a 5 shot group!

Here's a link to subsonic data.

http://guns.connect.fi/gow/arcane1.html

I tried some loads in my SKS, 87gnRN(.32 Auto) bullets, WLR primers, groups at 25 yards

2.6gn Bullseye 913fps 2.5inches(5shots)
sounded like a .22 long rifle.

1.9gn Bullseye 626fps 4.0inches(5 shots)
sounded a little louder than a .22 short

1.0gn Bullseye 0fps bullet stayed in barrel
quiet indeed

Hope this helps

I am surprized carpetman did not point out the need to load low noise rounds using silent alloy cast bullets.

bltsandwedge. That remark about carpetmans humour was with tounge planted firmly in cheek. I've appreciated it for a long time now.
Lar45. I had to pick myself up off the floor, from the mental picture of a hurricane of wax, wood slivers etc. flying through the air, & trying to explain it to your wife. Good story.
Hobie. I could see that it's a 5 shot group. I used the plural because I'm sure you've done it more than once, or could do it again. It is impressive & the results that I'm looking for.
rob. I've been to the site from Finland many times, but most of their work is with subsonics @ just below the speed of sound & the use of suppressors to contain the supersonic gases. The powers that be around here would frown on it so much that I don't even want it in the house. Also I need something considerably quieter than a .22 LR.
wills. I'm sure carpetmans creative ability to think outside the envelope will lead to many new discoveries & yet more ways to rid the world of feral cats. Errr at least give us a morning smile. Ron.D

I started to fiddle with such loads in my 35 whelen. I was using a 150 gr rn pistol bullet, and a cut down 22 rf case as a powder scoop. I got to the point that the case was all of 1/8" long, and with that amount of unique, with a wad of dacron to keep the powder in place, the bullet would make it 1/2 way through a phone book at point blank range, and the report was on par with a cap gun. I did something similar with cut down 458 postal bullets that had a single lube groove in the 458 lott.

I think the ideal purpose built gun would be a 45 acp with a 30" barrel. You should be able to drive 300 gr cast bullets with a fairly low report. The key is large bores with heavy bullets, and a long barrel. A 500 gr slug doesn't have to be going very fast to be effective on game, and if you are down to the cap gun level of report, or under, you shouldn't upset the neighbors.

I had a quiet load one day years ago. I was lapping the mold for a friends .58 muzzle loader. Had to lap, then cast and lap some more until the Minie ball was a thumb push into the muzzle. You guessed it, it went in and would not come out. I pushed it all the way down and dribbled a little FFFG into the nipple. Capped it and pointed it at the 2x4 leg on my old work bench. Pop, and I could feel the thing go through the barrel under my hand. Came out with a soft pop and the darn thing buried it's full length into the 2x4. Kept that 2x4 trophy until I moved.

Many years ago the military came up with a shotgun shell for clandesten operations. the powder was inside a metal accordian shaped device. when the shell was fired the metal expanded out to the end of the shotshell case and stoped, the shot charge was propeled out the barrel and no gas escaped. In a pump shotgun all you could hear was the firing pin drop. Might be hard to make but I'm sure one of you guys with time on your hands could work on it.

elbStJoeMO

The heavy for caliber bullet is to get the energy up. It's counterproductive for noise. I get good quiet loads shooting light .38 Specials in a .357 Max Handi. Not silent, but does not sound like a gunshot, either. More of a whoof-ching sound.

The route I would try were I serious about this would be one of the H&R 32" .45-70 barrels.

Read a long time ago but have never tried sleeving cases to reduce powder capacity. Fellow made up bushings he seated inside the case. If you reduced .45-70 case capacity enough to get a good burn on 4 or 5 grains of Bullseye and used bullets as cast in one of the old oversized .45 LC moulds a 32" barrel would be quiet indeed.

You can also seat those RBs down in the .45-70 case right on top of the powder. Takes a bit of hand work but we're not talking high volumes of fire here.

I've one friend who used nylon rod turned to just fit a straight wall case and cut to length to allow normal seating of the bullet. He then drilled out a hole in the center until he had just the right volume to hold the charge he wanted. Me thinks he read about that here! Anyway, he's right please and shoots 405 gr. cast bullets out of his .45-70 at about 600 fps. His intent is to make 5 cases. One problem he has is depriming. He's tried taking the cylinder out and then depriming and he's tried using a purpose built decapping pin by hand. He either has a b!&#^ of a time getting the cylinder out or he bends his decapper.

I don't have any empty .45-70 cases at the moment but when I do (which should be soon ) I'll pull out the RBs and try them myself.

Sorry for pointing out that it was a 5-shot group. I was just so darn proud of that load's performance!

Hi guys, The NEF in 45-70 is definitely on the short list. I would still like to know if there is any taper to the inside of the case, or, if a 500gr. boolit could be seated on or near the small amount of powder required. Also as sacreligious as it may seem to others, is it possible to mount a scope on the Buffalo Bore Classic. Ron.D

Sirs: i hope this isn't heretical, but paco kelly, a fine writer at leverguns. com and sixguns. com gives some reasonable sounding advice. i distinctly recall his explanation of a 30-30 load, virtually silent, with a 170 grain + throw weight and enough velocity to equal 38 special short range energy. enough to cure a rabid dog. ned

Mr. Ludd,

Could you give us the particulars or a link to same? Thanks.

Sir: go to www.sixgunner.com links to the various sites and front page mention of mr. kelly's name &etc. entertaining fellow. regards, ned

Ron D: To try to answer your question,I pulled out a box of Winchester .45-70 empty-primed cases (about fifteen years old, with "W-W" headstamp) and ran my split-ball small hole gauge through a couple of specimens. Set to 0.458", it dragged pretty evenly down to about 3/8" above the base, so in this case, your trick MIGHT be made to work. BUT, (a) I had to tilt the gauge and wiggle it past the cannelure at the base of the neck section, so you'd have to iron this out, or use cases that had been fired normally a few times; and (b) this was pure chance, as the case OD tapers by 0.025" over this range, and Winchester cases are generally thin-walled as compared to, say, Remingtons, so it was luck that the wall thickness just about compensated for the taper. They also vary from lot to lot, so you could not count on getting a straight "bore" inside any cases you might pick up.

A much better bet would be to have a machinist make you up ten or so special cases turned to the SAAMI outside profile, or - better - matched to a Cerrosafe cast of your chamber, and bored and reamed to match your throat and/or groove diameter.

Even better might be to have the case bored full diameter to your preferred seating depth, and then a smaller diameter hole bored back to the "web"; you'd have to experiment with depth and diameter to get the charge you want to just fill the recess. I once made up a few cases like this for a friend with an old and rather feeble Snider-Enfield conversion in .577-450, using Black Powder, of course, and I don't even try to call myself a machinist.

Drills and reamers are generally available in half-thousandth intervals from supply houses like MSC, and Sinclair and others make precision "primer pocket uniformers" to give you the correct shape, diameter and depth. Standard 5/8" or 3/4" round brass rod stock is available about anywhere.

You might spend a hundred bucks or so for ten cases, but they'd last forever at these levels, and well fitted to the chamber neck so the brass wouldn't fatigue or require re-sizing.

This is an old, old idea, and such cases were known in the 1880's as "Everlasting" cases; some of them are still in use to-day by the Schuetzen types.

floodgate

Thanks once again guys for all the input. I've read most of what Paco Kelly has written on the subject, & it will be part of the final outcome. In the short term I've ordered a chamber insert for my 26" barrelled P14, in 303-32acp.
Floodgate, thank you for your very concise answer. I think it will lead to the ultimate solution. It sounds as though, if the inside of the 45-70 cases presented a small problem, that I should be able to either drill or lap them since it seems they are quite close from front to back.
I wouldn't need to seat the boolit all the way down, but just close enough to reduce case capacity. I would still be using a suitable powder such as clays, unique or red dot. Ron.D

I have zero experience with cast bullets (other than commercial lead .45ACP semi-wadcutters in my old 1911's).

My experience with greatly reduced loads and jacketed rifle bullets led me to choose Unique as a propellent. For greatly reduced loads, it delivers very good accuracy.

My experience was with 52gr SMK's in .223 and .22-250. The .223 like 7gr of Unique, and the .22-250 liked 9gr. Both were very accurate at 100yd, but were very vulnerable to crosswinds.

These loads were not developed for noise reduction, but to cut down barrel heating in 100yd rifle matches that required a high rate of fire. They worked very nicely for the intended goal, but did not pereform well in crosswinds.

I doubt that any greatly reduced load would handle the crosswinds very much better than a rimfire would.

Greg

RonD.: For another data point,I dug out some empty, unprimed, nickeled Remington (R-P) brass I got a couple of years ago. These miked 0.053" inside the neck (never having been expanded). There is no cannelure on these, but the ball gauge at that setting would only go 5/8" - 7/8" into the case, the walls thickening too fast beyond that depth. They varied quite a bit from case to case. I suppose you could ream them out as you suggested, once they had been fire-formed to your chamber. For low-velocity loads, you wouldn't need to re-size ever again, and with some care to keep them right-side up, you could probably rely on lube tackiness to keep the nbullet down on the powder while carrying them around. floodgate