Cu and Ag in lead alloy?

13 July 2003, 07:57

Paul B

You can get 95/5 percent lead free solder. Just look for the one that says 5 pecent silver. I get mine at Home Depot. About a three foot piece will add just enough tin to wheel weights for easy castability and the silver is just a bonus. That's for ten pounds of WW.
My personal do-all alloy is 10 pounds WW, 1 pound linotyupe and the three foot piece of 95/5 solder. Makes a good bullet in the 12 BHN range and will heat treat to 30-31 BHN. Not sute if it'll be brittle, but they sure shoot good for me.
Paul B.

13 July 2003, 08:36

Philip

Paul,

I'm looking for a max of 3-4% antimony, and 25+ BHN. How do u heat treat yours?

My problem is that I'm living in Nigeria, and can't get good hard cast shipped from the US. Want to reload for 45/70, shooting heavy game. Need bullets that won't mushroom, and won't blow up on heavy bones. I know that pure linotype is too brittle, as is a 7-8% antimony alloy.

Thanks

Philip

13 July 2003, 19:07

Winger Ed

quote:
Originally posted by Philip:
Paul,

I'm looking for a max of 3-4% antimony, and 25+ BHN. How do u heat treat yours?

My problem is that I'm living in Nigeria, and can't get good hard cast shipped from the US. Want to reload for 45/70, shooting heavy game. Need bullets that won't mushroom, and won't blow up on heavy bones. I know that pure linotype is too brittle, as is a 7-8% antimony alloy.

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Something you might try is 15-20 pounds of cleaned, processed into ingots, wheelweights mixed with a entire pound of 95/5 solder. Cast them, then drop them into a 5 gallon bucket of water with a good bit of ice.

Hitting the ice chills, and tempers them better than just cool water, plus it slows them down enough they don't get dinged up hitting the bottom of the bucket.

*
For a bit of safety, I have my bucket about a half a step away from the lead pot.

That way;
As I watch the sprue cool, I'm moving to the bucket. Chop the sprue, drop the bullet in the bucket,,,,,,,,, look, & watch to see any splash of water in the mold.....

In the half step back to the pot;

I have plenty of time & distance to deal with any water before I drop molten lead on it.

*

Run the pot a bit hot, so the bullets come out just a bit frosted.

I've have done that for years with the gas checked, .30 bullets I hunt with.

The supplys are easy to get, the bullets can be cast fast, their weight is very consistant, they are very accurate, they come out of the mold real well, and it all works fine.

Now,
If you push these real fast, and shoot a lot of them between cleaning, they are hard enough that you will get some leading in the barrel.

If you are shooting a .45-70 bullet over 400 gr., this system should do a good job for you.

I've only made a few of these in .45-70, but was very happy with them.

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Sure, you can get these bullets to shatter or fragment.

I've shot them into cement bricks and had them lose 25-50 % of their weight.
But, with little or no mushrooming.....they are hard.

Shooting into a cement block, they tend to flatten on one side and shuck off some lead from about half the nose of the bullet, but not expand.

But even then; you still have a 200-300 gr. slug of lead pushing more or less forward.

What part of a animal could you hit to make it perform worse than that?

Good Luck.

Ed.

14 July 2003, 05:39

HBL

You might want to consider obtaining one of Veral Smith's paper back books on Jacket Performance with Cast Bullets. He is the owner of LBT (Lead Bullet Technology)

This book will give you step by step instruction on the hows and whys of heat treating and will walk you through every step. Instructions are in his book for heat treating various combinations of allows along with straight wheel weights, for any BHN hardness your shooting requires.

[Smile]

14 July 2003, 06:53

Paul B

Phillip. Winger Ed's suggestions will work OK. Randy garrett, the gentleman who makes to super hard bullets in his loaded ammo uses basically the same method and apparently has no problems or complaints about the quality of his ammunition so I won't fault the method.
According to Dennis Marshall and Bill Ferguson, both metallurgists, their opinion though is to cast the bullets and size them without lubing, heat treat them in an oven, (I use a toaster oven.) then drop them in the water to quench. Then, lube the bullets with a sizing die .001" to .002" larger than what you normally size your bullets. It is more work, but I agree with Marshall and Ferguson that results are more consistant.
Also, it's easier to size the bullets before they're hardened.
You might try looking at barnes & Noble for a copy of the RCBS cast bullet loading manual #1. It's be in the out of print section if they have any. That book gives a very simple explanation on heat treating bullet, along with a photo of the type basket used to hold the bullets.
The suggestion to get veral Smith's book is also a darn good idea. I keep meaning to get one myself, but never seem to get around to it.
All of my cast bullet hunting is usually for deer and smaller animals using the BHN12 alloy without heat treating. The harder version has been used basically for shooting targets in a private postal competition.
The only bullet I've done any serious work with in the 45-70 is Lyman's #457122, a 330 gr. plain based hollow point. Again, I've just used the softer alloy. There just isn't anything here in Southern Arizona to justify the harder bullets.
Well, maybe elk in black timber.
A friend of mine did borrow my Marlin 45-70 years ago to do a deep black timber elk hunt. He got a shot at the south end of a northbound elk at roughly 25 yards. (Texas heart shot.) The bullet hit at the root of the tail, traversed the entire length of the elk coming to a stop against the skin of the front of the elk's chest. he gave me the bullet and you can almost reload it and shoot it again. Bullet came from a 500 gr. mold I used to have, and the metal was wheel weight metal age hardened without quenching.
I think it would help out if I knew just what type of alloy or metal supply you have. Feel free to E-mail me the details, and I'll see what I can figure out.
Paul B.

14 July 2003, 07:43

tasco 74

YOU COULD TRY LINOTYPE FOR HARDER BULLETS. MY MENTOR SAYS IT MAKES HARD LIGHT BULLETS.

14 July 2003, 16:08

Leftoverdj

quote:
Originally posted by Philip:
Paul,

I'm looking for a max of 3-4% antimony, and 25+ BHN. How do u heat treat yours?

My problem is that I'm living in Nigeria, and can't get good hard cast shipped from the US. Want to reload for 45/70, shooting heavy game. Need bullets that won't mushroom, and won't blow up on heavy bones. I know that pure linotype is too brittle, as is a 7-8% antimony alloy.

Thanks

Philip

Three parts pure lead to one of lino oughta get you about where you want to go.

I have no idea what Nigerian wheelweights are made of or even if they use them, although I am pretty sure they have wheels. If they do have WWs and you can get used ones, one part lino to five or six of WW oughta be close.

14 July 2003, 17:00

HenryC470

quote:
Originally posted by Philip:
...Want to reload for 45/70, shooting heavy game...

You should be able to make good 45-70 buffalo loads with whatever's readily available. Simply shout "Stop, or I'll shoot you with my 45-70" in the local language. If the buffalo believes you, he will collapse on the spot with laughter. [Big Grin]

Seriously, at least one U. S. manufacturer advertises that their bullets contain silver. I have no idea how much or why. Probably low levels due to lead free solder contamination of their lead source. At $4 US per troy ounce, a 400 grain silver bullet would cost $3.34, and a 400 grain 1% silver bullet would cost $0.03 more than it has to.

I am given to understand that most of the hardness in hard lead is from the antimony, that tin is added to help with castability, and that you need at least a tiny amount of arsenic to get any increase in hardness from heat treating. Hard (chilled) bird shot has arsenic in it, and a little of that is all you need.

H. C.

15 July 2003, 08:44

Paul B

H.C. I once read an article in a very old gun rag sometime around 1959-60 where the writer actually tried to cast and shoot real silver bullets. The end result is he couldn't do it. Couldn't get the metal hot enough, or something, I don't recall what.
I'm not sure what the silver content in Lasercast is, but probably ain't much. They probably have 25 pound ingots of whatever mix they use made up on special order from some foundry or other supplier.
FWIW, they used to harden lead bullets with mercury back in the 1800's. Wonder what the life expectancy of the guys making those bullets was?
Paul B.

15 July 2003, 12:15

Eddie

quote:
I have plenty of time & distance to deal with any water before I drop molten lead on it.

I have water hit the mould quite often, but have yet to see it remain more than a second. It sizzles off before I can think of closing the handles.

Eddie

22 July 2003, 08:00

sundog

Philip, yes, to your original question. But as the copper content increases so does sheeting and poor mould fill out. That can be compensated for with tin. Felix and I made some coppered alloy by adding copper babbit and got some with too high copper content and could not pour good bullets. So, we diluted it and added some tin, works fine. The ingots ring like a bell when dropped on concrete. Just because a bullet is hard doesn't mean it is not brittle. Gotta have something in it to hold it all together. I don't know the percentages, you just have to experiment. sundog