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Hello to the Castboolit boys. What a blast reading that thread. I see many are gun shy to get involved like Deputy Al and runfiverun, although runfiverun did post some. Yeah, touchy subject that RPM thing. Geesh, where to start. Well for starter not a one of you learned anything from the 6.5 threads on HV shooting that 45 2.1 and myself did. Now ponder this: If I have shot small one hole groups with my 6.5 Swede, 6.5 MS, and my 6.5 Grendel, then according to Larry if I slow my rpm down to 150,000 rpm, that I should be the next benchrest champion of the world. He says you're best accuracy will fall in that rpm range. Come on Larry, why don't you and Al Gore throw away the same old BS you both have been peddling for years! From what I've read of the thread, excluding 45 2.1, Zeek knows more then the whole lot of you. Larry a perfect bullet is just about the least important thing is shooting small groups at HV. It will tighten your groups when you hit the majic spot. Runfiverun, making a 308 case smaller for the more accurate smaller powder load will not make the powder burn slower. Also that accurate load may not be as accurate because you changed the pressure because the case is smaller. Also pressure is what makes smokeless powder burn better. You fellows are only partly right about alloy hardness and stress of shooting the bullet. All those HV groups were shot with 45 2.1's AC 50/50 alloy which is hardly a hard alloy. There was never any stripping in the bore either. Been away for a while playing with my minty Arisaka Type 44 6.5 carbine. Of course I applied 45 2.1's buffer technique to it and am enjoying some darn good shooting, ableit with irons sights because I'm not ruining the rifle as it's all matching with Mum and dust cover! 303guy normally I think you're a pretty sharp boy, but in the 720 thread you're way off on lots of things and the major one is cast bullets don't bend at the muzzle nor after leaving the muzzle. Get that notion out of your head. Keep up the bad work boys, y'all doin fine! Remember this old southern saying as it fits a few of your pretty good, like Larry: "Once a bent nail, always a bent nail". | ||
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huh? Rich | |||
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Raise hand. I got it! I got it! He thinks he's on the www.castboolit.com forum. happens to me all the time... Rich | |||
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Rich...we're The Banned of Brothers | |||
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Hell joe, you are the "benchrest champion" of the world! At least according to you. Hell you're the cast bullet champion of the world also, problem is no one can find your name in any record books......we all already know the lame excuse about not shooting matches, etc. ad nauseum so don't bother. You're probably posting here because no one except 45 2.1 even tried to pick up your banner on the Cast Boolit Forum. I thought bob at least could come up with better than he did with that lame .44 crap in lever guns. Did you coach him on that one.....sounds more like you than him  You ever going to send those 6.5 bullets like you promissed? Larry Gibson | |||
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No I'm not going to claim that title, but I have proven over and over with more then a handful of rifles, with a fast twist I might add, that "good" accuracy can be had at HV and high RPM with cast bullets by using the loading methods such described in the various 6.5 threads. Hey 2000 fps isn't HV with an M39 Finn.  NOw when you can shoot the 314299 at 2000 feet into consistent ten shot 1/2 inch groups then you're getting there. | |||
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Larry, Listen to what Zeek has to say. I'd say he's one of the more knowledgeable members in that thread and his new PP thread. | |||
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joe Hello....are you there....perhaps you should listen to zeek. Here's what he says; "any RPM over around 150,000 is going to give you a challenge both in the torque-up department and in the bullet-flight department (accuracy). Below that rate, things are usually easier.". hmmmm....seems the only difference between he and I say is that I say about 140,00 RPM for regular cast bullets and he says 150,000 RPM with PP bullets. Zeek and I are in agreement in that thread and he is reiterating nothing more than I did about how RPM can and will adversely affect accuracy. It's called the "RPM Threshold". Perhaps you should listen to and learn from him or at least listen to him because you haven't heard or understood a single thing I've said or anyone else except 45 2.1 who only mentions you and your claims when it comes to HV cast bullet accuracy. He doesn't post any of his own claims. I got to admit you do shoot milsurp rifles with cast bullets (ok, your 6.5 commercial rifles also) at your place with no one else there. I don't know any one else who shoots 10 shot 1/2 moa groups with mislurps using cast bullets. Actually I don't know anyone who can do it with jacketed match bullets either. I've seen a lot claim they can but if they ever attept it with witnesses they always have a lame excuse why they can't; different lot of powder, scope is going bad, bad box of bullets, different primers, yadda yadda add nauseum. At least you're smart enough to not attempt it in front of witnesses. You have refused and squirmed your way out of that one several times. So when are you sending those 6.5 kurtz bullets with you GCs and slick lube? You've been doing a "squirm" job to get out of that promiss too. Don't you think it's about time you put up or shut up? The rest of us think so. Your outlandish claims and continual argument on just about every topic with just about every one is why you have been banned form several forums. Now back to HV loads; I do shoot lots of HV cast bullet loads in several cartridges. I even think that 45 2.1s technique with the filler is a good one and has improved things in my own 6.5 Swedes. However, I was using a different bullet than you used (yes, we already know you can shoot accurate HV groups with bullets even cast in lead sinker moulds, yadda yadda yadda.....). I also never was able to match your claimed velocities (came with in 200 fps though), even with a full length M96 and your favorite load. Let's see now.....1/2 moa 10 shot groups with a M39 Swede....let me go look at the military rifle match results from the national matches.....Hmmmm, don't see your name at all......wonder why that really is......  Larry Gibson | |||
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Larry Larry Larry, Funny, you tell me to listen and READ what Zeek writes. I think you should take your own advice. I know we're at that age Larry where we may need reading glasses, but if you go back to my post you will see I said 1/2 inch ten shot groups with the M39 FINN!!!!!!! Not a Swede by any means. Sorry you missed that and caused yourself embarrassment. Now take the fact that you have to prepare HV loads for any 6.5 rifle differently then just loading up some for the old 30-30 yes I would say it's harder then. But once you learn more about the Bob's technique, and believe there is more to it then meets the eyes, you will see that's it's not hard to do. I'm applying that loading method to the 6.5 Type 44 I just got and it's responding very well and giving me a whole different perpective of that little round. Recently I built another match AR 15 with a 20 inch stainless match barrel from Lothar Walther in 6x45. On my first outing, after sighting it in, with what I consider crummy 100 grain Hornady roundnoses I shot a .250 five shot group. I shot it more then once. I did this breaking my barrel in. Maybe you just can't shoot Larry. Face it, not all shooters are equal in that department. I built another one for a friend and we'll wait see what his does. I've been told by others that the 6x45 is a very accurate round. No at this point I don't foresee any cast bullets for it. For one thing it has a very short free bore in conjunction to the AR 15 OAL limitation which both limit the bullet weight even if it is a bore rider. I wasn't talking about what Zeek said about HV being little harder to do, I was speaking what he's learned about buffer and reduced powder charges with that buffer and the pressures. Did you comprehend what he was saying about cratered primers? | |||
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Sorry joe but your BS is old news. I said milsurps BTW which includes the Swede and finn. You claim such BS 1/2 moa with all of your milsurps so the Finn was included. BTW; very good accuracy at 2000 fps with a 314299 in the Finn is not all that hard to do. It really is just borderline HV anyway and those of us who do it still don't claim 1/2 moa 10 shot groups. I don't recall anything about "cratered primers" being mentioned by zeek in that thread. Besides I have already measured the pressures of your loads and 45 2.1s and there isn't any excessive pressures. However if one does use the suggestions made by bob (45 2.1) with 3100 in the Swede then the psi did run 60,400 but there were no "cratered primers" even though the velocity was 2840 fps. Here is what zeek really said in that thread; There are other things that are valid variables, but the twist rate sits all by itself and helps make things simple. Here's how: The MV is similar for most high power rifles, so that is really not a variable. . . . rather, it is a desired destination. Therefore, it reflects your degree of success (or, in the case of failure, your suck cess), so is not really a "variable." A fast twist rate limits your ability to GET into the desired MV range (while keeping accuracy) because, for any given MV, the twist controls the RPM and RPM can have a two-fold problem: 1) the torque-up phase is MUCH harder on the CBoo core; and 2) the free-flight (assuming that the RPM is high enough for stability) gets a hit because the higher the RPM, the higher the adverse effect of ANY unbalance, including micro-bubbles located in the CBoo's rear (steering) end. That is what the RPM Threshold is all about. Zeek and I are in complete agreement. Your loads of 31 gr AA4350 with the origianl buffer filler and the 130 gr 3GB bullet only ran 31,900 psi with 2077 fps. Not much chance of "cratered primers" there. Once again, like bob and his .44s in rifles BS, you come up with some esoteric BS not born of fact to try to obscure the real issue. That issue is that your constant claims of sub moa accuracy with milsurps using cast bullets at HV is BS So when can I expect those Kurtz bullets to test? Larry Gibson | |||
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Here's Zeek's post and I told you it was in the PP section: I went up to what would be a 38 Kpsi load (w/o corn meal), added the corn meal, and maxed out on the pressure (Russian Wolf primer just barely started to crater), so the corn meal was really boosting the pressure in this fat-body/small-diameter-neck case ~~~> be CAREFUL in this chanbering when using bulky fillers! It gave 2360 fps, and 7 of 8 shots went into 1.0". A second group of the same load gave 1.5", but that is still doing okay, under my own rather different-from-others' PPCBoo experience. I tried backing off the powder quite a bit further and using the corn meal. It still gave slight cratering of the primer. Therefore, the corn meal, although it does seal against gas leakage, takes up LOTS of room even when compressed. So, the less powder you use (therefore, you add more corn meal), the smaller is your effective case capacity. This makes it VERY difficult to adjust the maximum pressure! Everyone tired of your RPM BS Larry. Many guys on Castboolits really wanted to learn how to HV with high RPM, but your global warming BS about RPM threshold just scared them away. Hey how come you're aggressive with me here but you aren't with 45 2.1 on the Castboolit forum? No balls huh Larry, I thought so. Too bad the little army boy can't shoot and can't do it. Here's the flag you should be saluting: | |||
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One thing can be said for Larry...... is that he has one track......off the bridge into a chasm. | |||
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Isn't it amazing how Larry keeps using the same excuses? Larry are you and Obama related? Take for example how he keep repeating he couldn't get the same velocity as I did...duh! He used a much shorter barreled Swede then mine. We discussed that Larry. What Larry does when he can't do what someone has done is to run that person down, call them a lier. That is one of the major problems with the Castboolit forum. Larry did you notice how when you got in Zeek's thread Deputy Al popped in right away and said "I'll get the popcorn" and another said "Get me a drink while you're there too". In other words they know that the thread will go south because of your PPM BS. To you Larry I say this: If I agreed with you we'd both be wrong. | |||
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joe There's the whole problem, you fail to read and probably comprehend what anyone else says. Note in my post above and in the reports on the results of my tests that i also tested your "load" in a "M96". That is as in "m96" not M38 as you now attempt to refute. Yes my testing was primarily in the M38 but to appease you I also used my M96. Sorry joe but your claimed velocity was still way higher than anything I could come up with. Now we all know your Chrony is better than my 2 Oehlers (M35P and M43) simply because it is yours and you use it so that makes it "better' and, obviously, faster. Now, am I calling you a liar? No, I don't think so as I'm just questioning your claimed results based on the fact that no one else has duplicated them. However, if the shoe fits feel free to wear it. Yes I noticed the nay sayers pop in with their usual drivel but did you notice how they shut up when the thread remained a decent discussion of the topic without any wild claims and personal attacks (like the ones you're making here)? No, it's obvious you didn't noticed that at all. BTW; everyone can see plain as day how you've avoided the context of your previous messages and my responses. You always make personal attacks when your statements are proven false by facts; just like with what zeek really said in that thread, not what you say he said. How about sending those 100 Kurstz cast bullets you promissed? They should be worth the 10 AR15 20 round mags I sent you for nothing. Your failure to send them, as you promissed, is beginning to speak well of your charactor and demonstrates you keep your promises no more than Obama does. No wonder you know what he is like;-) Larry Gibson | |||
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The thread kind of died Larry, I believe that may be the reason they aren't saying anything...plus the fact that you entered it. I see you still not addressing 45 2.1, even here on Accurate where Kenny can't do anything to you. Here's another word that fits you: Paraprosdokian Once a bent nail always a bent nail...that's pretty fitting too. You have my sympathy though Larry. I feel for you never having graduated from Grade School Cast Bullet Loading. You're still stuck in the beginning stages of cast reloading and haven't advanced. What you "can" do, so can everyone else. If you listened to Bob maybe you can make it Junior High Cast Loading. | |||
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All rifles are different even from the same manufacturer, you know that Larry. By the way that's a not a claimed velocity, it's actual. Why is it you can dispute someone else's findings, but yours are always correct? | |||
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Hello Bob (45 2.1), good to see you could make it. Now I wonder how it is that we could come to such an understanding in our recent telephone conversation and you post such? Yes we do disagree on what causes inacuracy of cast bullets at HV but I thought we both agreed that they could be shot well at HV. After all I do shoot a lot of cast bullets accurately at HV. I've also learned to use your technique with success. I just don't make BS claims as joe does such as 1/2 moa 10 shot groups at 100 yards (maybe he makes his at 25 yards?) with evey misurp rilfe. His other claims of such accuracy with his AR and MS with cast bullets at astronomical velocities have everyone (ok, except a couple of you) calling BS. Getting such claimed velocity with cast bullets isn't hard to do (I got 2800+ fps with your supposed "starting" load in the 6.5) but doing it with accuracy is very hard to do. Now I say that it can be doen but 1/2 moa with cast bullets out of stock milsurps? That's BS, I know it, you know it and, hell, everyone knows it. Now, the fact that my M35P and m43 both give 150 -200 fps lower velocities than joe claims with his chrony and the same loads out of the same barrel length is also a BS indicator. I've had 3 others report they aren't getting his velocities either with his "load". Now you might want to claim joe has one of the so called "fast barrels" but I don't think so. Why? Simply because he makes the same rediculous velocity claims about hso 6.5 AR. His velocity and accuracy claims got him pooh poohed off the Grendal forum a couple times. It, along with his constantly arguing and personal attacks, has also got him permanantly banned from another forum. Too many knowledgeable people know better of his rediculous claims. I will state here, as i've always said, that it is possible to get accuracy at HV/RPM with cast bullets but it is not easy. As a matter of fact it can be down right difficult. The problem with joe is he makes rediculous accuracy claims and his chrony reading are suspect. The accuracy claims he should verify in front of reliable witnesses. As to the velocity claims, that may not be his fault as he is apparently just quoting what his chrony is saying. However, with others not coming close to his velocities with many different chronographs, including other chronys he should grab a clue and have his checked. He doesn't, he just argues and makes personal attacks. Always good talking to you bob but please do try to keep it on topic. I do shoot cast bullets well at HV. How about an average 10 shot group size at 100 yards of 1.5 moa at 2500+ fps with the .308W? I've discussed that with joe before but he ignores the facts and simply argues and makes personal attacks....is that what you are going to do? Personally I'd rather discuss how to shoot cast bullets accurately at high velocity. You have a nice day now. Larry Gibson | |||
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I'll say you're very different on the phone then on forums. My claims are facts. Like I said it's just too bad you never made it further then grade school cast loading. About the 1/2 inch groups. First because you can't do it doesn't mean it can't be done. Second if you think my 1/2 groups are something ask Bob about his, with milsurps, with cast, with issue iron sights. How about that buddy? Larry, how about some new material instead of the very dusty (and incorrect) BS you've been promoting probably from your early Grade School Cast Loading. | |||
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Yes RPM is important and many don't pay any attention to it. One that did pay attention and made millions upon millions was Ross Bagdasarian Sr better known as David Seville (David Seville was a stage name only). Ross realized if he played records too fast( I guess in technical terms, this would be exceeded the rpm threshold) for example, a 33 rpm record at 45 rpm that the voices were higher pitched. He used this technique and recorded a song called "Witch Doctor". That was a hit, so he made a group using the higher pitched voices. This group was known as The Chipmunks. Ross Sr died many years ago, but the Chipmunks are still around and have gone through several changes of who does the voices. The voices being distorted due to exceeding the rpm threshold, nobody notices the change. So far none of this has a thing to do with cast bullets. So to put it on track: If you exceed the threshold limit, and used cast bullets would it make a good chipmunk gun? Gosh I hope not, I'd miss ol Alvin. Guess if we killed him off, they'd just find another replacement. | |||
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joe Your claims are unverified. Several have offered to come witness you shoot such groups (on a couple forums and about your claims of different rifles/cartridges) but you refuse and then personally insult them. Your credibility is nil. If you want to claim having one of the fabled "fast barreled" rifles then that's one thing but your velocity claims for all your rifles with such loads are over the top. No one believes your 1/2 moa 10 shot groups at 100 yards with milsurps. The BS flag goes up on that one every time. I offered to pay the freight and any other costs both ways for you to send your rifle and ammo to me for a test. You refused. I offered to test your ammo in my M96 and pay the shipping. You refused. I asked for 100 of your Kurtz "perfect" bullets to test and you promised to send them but have not (are you ever going to send them? You keep failing to answer that very specific question) You refuse to shoot such groups or chronograph the loads in front of witnesses. Is it any wonder the BS flag goes up on anything you say? Are you going to send those 100 Kurtz bullets like you promissed? Larry Gibson | |||
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I was setting up with wiljen to come down when Ken went wacko in your thread and other things happen....so screw it. I guess one of the famous members will have to go to Bob's house and see it done. You can't do it You can't do it You can't do it You can't do it hahahahahaha Laughing my ass off at the Grade School Cast Loader. Hey Larry, I'm having fun with all my HV accurate shooting rifles...ask Bob. | |||
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Joe This is exactly why your credibilty is non exhistant; "I guess one of the famous members will have to go to Bob's house and see it done." You once again avoid having anyone verify your claims. After all, it is your obsurd claims that are in question, not bob's. Personal attacks again are only confirming your lack of charactor. All your claims are still; Larry Gibson | |||
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It always amazes me how you can twist things so much. The world, or anybody else for that matter, doesn't operate on your rules. | |||
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Yeah Bob, Larry is a twister when he can't do the things being discussed. Larry, Wiljen is one of the mods that voted me banned so why would I want him at my place to verity something that YOU can't do. Frankly I don't give a damn if you or anyone else believes it or not. Speaking of that, if my stuff is all claims then nearly 100 % of the claims on Castboolits it just that....claims without verifications. Notice Larry I said nearly 100 %, but you will twist that. How about your claims, you have anyone on the forum verify all your tests? Once a bent nail always a bent nail...yup fits you to a tee. BaBore came up with a good avatar for him which is directed at you SPIN hahahahaha Larry Gibson...Grade School Cast Loader level. | |||
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Was wondering, none of my guns have a tachometer to check rpm. What kind of tach do you guys recommend? | |||
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Ray, I'd recommend an Oehler sold at most automotive shops. | |||
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Bob "twist things so much"....hign RPM....I'm sure you meant the pun  No the world does not operate under my rules. The world does operate under the laws of physics though and it is under those laws and rules that govern what makes bullets fly accurately. You and I are in agreement the RPM threshold can be pushed higher and on how to push the RPM threshold higher with cast bullets. What you don't agree on is that inaccuracy above the point we push them to is an RPM threshold. You have a difficult time understanding whether the threshold is at 1800 fps or at 2400 fps that the inaccuracy in flight is caused by the adverse affect of the increased centrafugal force of the increased RPM. If that were not the case a load that shoots moa at 1800 fps would still shoot moa at 2400 fps. We both know that is not the case. The increased RPM is the reason for the inaccuracy in flight. You fail to understand that. I and most everyone else understands that. Thus we disagree. Larry Gibson | |||
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Larry, You JUST have to be right about something. First it was we couldn't shoot high rpm cast bullets at HV with accuracy and it's been done. Now you want to say that the higher the rpm the accuracy deteriorates. You change the rules along with twisting them. You have to be right about something and you have to be center of attention. There's a name for that and the first three letters of it are Nar....... | |||
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Joe--From what you told me that you sent in a private message that in turn was forwarded directly to Ken, I seriously doubt that Wiljen or anyother moderator had a vote. I suspect Ken easily made the decision on his own. | |||
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Speaking of "grade school" such atypical childish personal attacks simply demonstrates your lack of charactor. I've had a PM telling me you've at least got the first six letters of your log in name correct. He wonders just what it is you are "smokin'"  Just more on your part. Larry Gibson | |||
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I started this thread so the innocent shooters in the thread on the other forum weren't BS'ed to by you. See Larry, no twist there, just the truth. I'm not aware of other two people that wanted to come unless you're talking about yourself (which you were suppose to call and drop by in your military travels) or Pat. Pat and I don't exactly see eye to eye so why would I want him down? You got what I'll call decent accuracy with your Swede testing but you sure didn't hit the accuracy that others have. | |||
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Carpetman 1, obviously one that will read 240,000+RPM. Rich  | |||
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Joe You just can't get anything right. I said you couldn't shoot regular cast bullets, refering to nose riding designs at the then HV of 2400" fps. This was in discussion about the 311291 in a 10" twist '06. Bass and I worked that bullet every which (I have 2 moulds; one that Bass also used and one that is a perfect fit) and could get decent accuracy (neither of us are foolish enough to claim 10 shot 1/2 moa groups) up to about 2300 fps. Bass did it with one '06 rifle and I did it with two. The perfect fit 311291 didn't fair any better accuracywise than the other one. Both of us still got the best accuracy down in the 1800 - 1950 fps range which is under the RPM threshold for such bullets and loads. I've also posted time and again correcting you that the RPM threshold is not a "limit" but can be pushed higher. You fail to understand, your comprehension level is somewhat underwelming after all of this. Hey, you started this thread, not me. You always come out of the blue on this forum and the ones your banned from with your incessent arguments and outlandish claims. The center of mass on this one is in your pocket, not mine. Once again nothing but from you. Larry Gibson | |||
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Besides yourself and bob there aren't any others. The guy in Australia that claimed such went back and could not duplicate the one 5 shot group he shot. His groups were so poor he gave up. No one except you claims 1/2 moa 10 shot groups at 100 yards at 2385 fps with any cast bullet in any 6.5 Swede or any other milsurp that I am aware of. Just more from you. Have you sent those 100 Kurtz bullets like you promised? Larry Gibson | |||
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Ray, Yes that is correct. The Castboolit forum has the highest quality most honorable God fearing people on it that friendship doesn't mean a damn thing to them. They are called Rats, these people that can't wait to run to Kenny and tell him something said something bad about them or Castboolits. These are the kind of friends that everyone should have huh? | |||
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Guys I'm having a major problem trying to shoot high rpm bullets. They are going so fast they catch my target on fire and I can't tell how they group. I tried asbestos targets but they shatter and besides that, I can't even find asbestos targets. Hell, they don't even have em on EBAY. So I asked earlier if high rpm bullets would make a good chipmunk gun. Well a guy on EBAY had some old Chipmunk 45 rpm records which I bought to use as a chipmunk target. I'm getting perfect one hole group right in the center too. You'd be amazed how much those bullets expand at high rpm. The hole is much bigger than the bullet. It was so easy to get that one hole group at 100 yards, I'm now doing it at 2,000 yds--one hole group everytime--perfect hole at that. But I learned if you exceed the rpm threshold by very much, you maintain the accuracy but the bullet shrinks instead of expanding. Shot some 78RPM records and they grouped perfectly but only had a small hole. Certainly wouldn't work on a deer but should be ideal on a chipmunk. So if you deer hunt with high rpm, you need to slow down the rpm, or speed it up enough to create enough friction to cook the deer. Now thats hunting animals. If shooting fish, you need to slow em way down. I mean really slow. Instead of getting the high pitch chipmunk--at lower rpm ----------------- you get more bass. | |||
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your nose is growing... Rich | |||
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