My brother let me more or less permanently borrow his Ideal 7 cavity wad cutter mold # 358495. I've been having trouble with some of the bullets completely filling out in the base. My rejects average about 1 or 2 out of each 7 bullets cast. I alternated using that mold and a 6 cavity Lee. My lead temperature was around 750 degrees from an RCBS bottom pour furnace. The bullets from the Lee mold had perfect fillout.

The Ideal mold is cast iron, weighs 6 pounds including handles, and has a "trough" connecting the holes in the sprue plate. I assume it is designed to allow users to fill the first cavity and let alloy drain down the trough, filling the rest of the cavities. It's the only mold I have ever seen with a zirk fitting. :>

Here's my questions:

Does it take a higher lead temperature with the 7 cavity Ideal mold?
Should I use a specific technique when filling the mold relative to that "trough" in the sprue plate?
Anything else I should watch for?

FWIW, casters who regularly used molds like this must have been manly men. That thing is heavy! Turbo

Thats a big mold, it needs to be preheated and kept warm to produce good results. Running Pb down the trough only cools the Pb, not a great idea. It might work if the volume of Pb is large enough, the mold is hot enough, and the flow great enough.

I have a Lee pot, and I don't think it's hot enough and flows enough volume from the bottom. I still use the dipper more than I thought I would.

With my 4 cavity H&G .45 mould, the heaviest I have, I run the alloy hotter than with most other moulds (sorry, no thermometer). Also, I hold the ladle about 1/2" above the mould and try to fill the cavities in turn, keeping the ladle moving. I pour plenty of sprue, which all runs together. It takes some practice in keeping the ladle moving along the trough. I call this the controlled slop-pour method, but it works for me. HTH, curmudgeon

Turbo, I alternate with a 6 cavity H&G in .358 WC and one other four cavity Lyman of the bullet I need at the time. Since these are big, heavy steel moulds (the H&G must be placed at an angle in order to fit it under a Lee 20# bottom pour) I run no less than 850f...normally 900f..and add 1 part pure tin to 19 parts wheel weights. Even then I get 5 out of 100 that I reject- acceptable 'cuz I'm looking to produce a volume of perfect bullets in a short period of time. Packrat's right- the gate that runs between cavities on the sprue plate is not meant to act as a feeder to all the cavities. It's very helpful in allowing you to knock off one heavy sprue instead of a bunch of sprue pieces flyin' around. Regards....

Packrat and Curmudgeon, Thanks for the advice. It makes sense to keep the alloy temperature up a bit more and to keep the alloy dropping directly into the cavities, rather than flowing down the trough. The trough seemed like a neat idea, but is probably counterproductive to getting good bullet fillout.

I might also have to do some exercises to build up my arm strength to handle the 6 pounds the mold weighs. :> Turbo

The mould you are describing is an Ideal Armory Mould. They stopped making those in the early 50's I think.

Big moulds take longer to heat up. They also respond best to higher alloy temperatures. If you are going to use several moulds at once it is best to set your furnace temperature at its maximum setting.

If you are getting one or two bad bullets out of every seven that's a failure rate of less than 30% which ain't bad.

Trough type cut-off plates help keep the liquid meetal over the opening in the cut-off plate and thus improve base fillout. They aren't all that common because they are more expensive to make.

Fill the farest cavity away from you first. Then fill each one of the other cavities being sure to put alloy in the trough. Finally after every cavity is filled, put alloy over the top of all the alloy in the trough. The longer you keep the alloy in the trough hot the better the chance that the contracting alloy in the bullet cavities will be able to draw metal in.

If the trough hardens up first you get centralized base holes. Having hot metal in the trough limits that problem.

Armory moulds also had elaborate cut-off plates beyond just having the trough. What's yours look like?

These moulds don't like preheating. Ideal Armory moulds were very prone to warage. Preheating them is a VERY bad idea.

These were ok moulds in their day but technology has passed them by. They have some minor collector value but few are still used to make bullets.

They were made in four sizes, six cavity, 7-cavity, 8-cavity and 9-cavity depending on bullet diameter.

klw, Thanks for the info on the mold. I figured it was pretty old. It's nice to know I'm using a mold older than me (age 53). The sprue plate appears to be designed to be hit with a mallot. It is hinged in the front (the end away from the caster). The back end can move from side to side, and is limited in movement by a bolt which fits inside an elongated hole. The hole is roughly perpendicular to the line of cavities.

I will be shooting some of the bullets cast from the mold tomorrow. If they shoot pretty well, I'll cast a bunch more. It's helpfull to know that the mold requires a higher alloy temperature. I also appreciate the advice of not pre-heating the mold. Turbo

You fill the trough after filling all the cavities,supposedly this helps in filling the bases completely.Try buying a 7-8-9 cav mould today from Ballisticast $300-400 Sean

[ 10-26-2003, 01:58: Message edited by: 475/480 ]

There were two styles of cut-off plates on these. On moulds made before 1900 there was a curved slot that contained the pivot pin. The length of the slot determined the maximum amount of movement. Between 1900 and 1950 this design was modified so that there was also a specific stop in that engaged almost teeth like protrusions on either end of the swing. That limited the stress on the stop in inside the slot. Thus the exact shape of the cut-off plate can, on occasion, further date the age of the block.

Also as near as I could ever tell, before 1900 most blocks were six cavity. After 1900 there were various sizes depending on the diameter of the bullets.

Any chance of a digital photograph?

KLW, My mold has a specific stop that engages teeth like protrusions on either end of the swing. I guess that puts it in the era between 1900 and the 1950s.

I actually have two of the molds; the other one being a .357 diameter round nose style. The bullet design is very similar to a Lee 6 cavity mold that I have.

I have a digital picture of both molds, but don't know how to put pictures on this forum. I could attach it to an email message. Turbo

Here's a picture of my molds.



Turbo

[ 11-02-2003, 07:29: Message edited by: Turbo ]

That cut-off plate is what I would have expected. The ones without the teeth on the ends predates these by quite a bit. Also I think (but know for sure) that the pre-1900 gang moulds were all six cavity moulds.

These oldies are sold on ebay with some regularity. As usable moulds I'd rank them as close to worthless but, well... They bring anywhere from $50 to $225 depending solely on how badly someone wants one.

One last thing. Once this kind of cut-off plate appeared there were two kinds of handles. The earliest, probably starting around 1900 were permanently attached to the blocks. Later, I know not when, the handles could be unscrewed. That also helps date the mould somewhat.

klw, The handles on these molds do unscrew. The molds are interesting, but due to thier weight, I may not cast with them much. I appreciate the information you have given me.

I shot some of the wadcutters this morning. They shot well, but not necessarily better than bullets cast from my Lee 6 cavity molds. The Lee molds are certainly easier to use. Turbo

Were I using any such moulds, (and the largest steel moulds I have ever used have been 4 cavities), I would be running two pots and I would have a drop box rigged in front of the pots so I could slide rather than lift.

The steel 4 cavs I have used took a couple of pounds of metal to get to casting temp. Once I got them there, I did not want them cooling while I melted more alloy.

As others have said, I found the trough more of a PITA than a benefit. You get better bullets filling each cavity directly. I also agree that you need to run your alloy a good bit hotter.

I'd love to do a couple of casting sessions with moulds like yours, but I suspect I would hate to have to live with them.