First of all I have little experience using lead bullets. To get my feet wet I bought several types of 35 cal. gas checked bullets from John Benaglio to see how they would perform in one of my large capacity wild cats.

I did that but the real eye opener was when I used a 297 gr gas checked bullet in a 9 (358)X41 wildcat.It achieved over 2000 fps in that little case. That's the energy level of a 30-06. I really was surprised.

Let's say a 300 gr. bullet ,35 caliber, with an optimum hardness,Whatever that is,traveled at 2000fps. Would this be adequate to use on elk?

I've seen discussions on other forums that critisize the using of lead bullets on big game. So now I'm coming to the experts. What has your experiece been? Can such a bullet as I've described be used for a shoulder shot on elk or larger game? Thanks roger

I haven't personally done so, but I would use that combination on elk without hesitation. There was an article in either handloader or rifle a few years back about cast bullets in the whelen against elk. The author used a 35 whelen pushing a 250 gr cast 2000 fps and had not complaints about the performance. With a heavier bullet, you'd be even better off.

His conclusion on hardness was that soft is better as it will expand. He used air cooled ww's bhn~11.

I have cast bullets for over 35 years,so I don't spread the rumors,old wives tales etc against using them. Except for varmint hunting,I don't use them for hunting. I did try a cast bullet on a spike buck once and results dismal.(small Texas whitetail) I know this was not a good test as it was a .243 and a bigger bullet would have probably worked. But results with jacketed .243 have worked well. I do believe jacketed bullets are better for large game and that's what I would use if I had the opportunity to go elk hunting. This is not to say cast bullet wont work.

I killed an elk last season with my .358 Winchester. Here's a run down on the results, with autopsy photos.

http://www.aimoo.com/forum/postview.cfm?id=514616&Categ...58&tolast=yes#bottom

This is some info on the rifle and loads.

http://www.aimoo.com/forum/postview.cfm?id=514616&Categ...D=1245948&tolast=yes

There is a signifigant difference between a .243 with cast, especially if cast hard, and a 35 cal, especially if cast soft.

My personal thoughts on using cast for hunting big game are, minimum of 30 caliber, use heavy for caliber bullets, use the softest alloy you can accurately shoot, keep muzzle velocity in the 1800-2200 fps range, use a larger caliber than you would with jacketed bullets, and finally, realize you will get differnt terminal performance than you do with jacketed bullets.

If the island I'm deer hunting this fall wasn't inhabited with big bears, I'd more then likely be hunting with cast out of my 350 Rigby, and I just might have to bring a few cast loads. As it is, my comfort level is much higher pushing 250 gr jacketed @ 2700 vs 300gr cast @ 2000 fps.

Plenty of elk have been effectively harvested with much less powerful rounds than the 35 cal 300 gr @ 2000 fps cast load you're going to use. As with any rifle, pick your shot carefully and place the bullet properly. Perhaps having something you feel doesn't have a great degree of power is good, because you'll be alot more concerned about carefully placing your shot.

PaulH--Yes there is a significant difference in a .243 cast and a .35 Whelen--that echoes what I said--a larger bullet(cast)would have probably worked. There is also a very significant difference in the range you could kill a game animal with a jacketed bullet @3000 and a cast one of same weight @2000. For me here in San Angelo Texas,going elk hunting would not be a routine deal,it would be huge treat I would want to make the most of. I suspect for bartsche in Calif it is a big treat type thing as well. Why lessen your chances? It's not like getting one with cast bullets would be something that hasn't been done many times by others. Not saying cast wont do it,but for same reason your comfort level is higher with the jacketed rounds---odds are better,I'd give myself the best chance.

In late October I'm going to Alberta on a combined elk/white-tail hunt. The white-tails are enormous in those parts, with 400-pounders not being exceptional.

I figure to use my .338 Savage and 225 TSX bullets for the first critter, whether it be elk or deer. After that, my #1 Ruger in .416 Rigby using cast bullets will likely take over. I have found a method of casting softpoint bullets, with pure lead noses and WW shanks, which have NO SEAM OR JOINT between the two hardnesses of alloy. They are perfectly homogenous.

Tested against jugs of water, the 365-grain bullets retained 66% of their weight and expanded to over .88" with a muzzle-velocity impact of 2100 fps. This performance leads me to believe that they will perform very well on game.

For more info, go to the "castboolit" address provided above by waksupi, and search for "softpoint".

[QUOTE]Originally posted by waksupi:
I killed an elk last season with my .358 Winchester. Here's a run down on the results, with autopsy photos.

Looked that sight over and got frustrated as I could not find your elk killing history. It was an interesting sight. I have shot a number of elk with jacketed bullets and if I had reliable information as to the adequacy of the afore mentioned bullet I would not hesitate to use it should I ever hunt elk again.

I have witnessed a 500gr 45 cal. lead bullet in a 45-70 and a case full of 3031, go through a large mule deer. It was a broad side standing shot at about 30 yards. The holes in and out were about the same size. Had that been an elk I'm sure the result would have been the same. The question still in my mind is one of perfomance going through the shoulder. Can the 300gr. gas checked bullet 35cal. at 2000 fps be dependable with shoulder shots?

I guess I'm looking for evidence rather than opinion. roger

I would rather think that how a cast bullet would perform on an elk's shoulder would be based on the alloy used. Wheel weight metal (WW) is commonly used either as is ot water dropped to harden it. One problem that does arise is WW today is softer in composition than WW made back in and around 1973. I have a 500 gr. bullet cast from 1973 era WW that was shot at an elk at very close range. The bullet punnched through the pelvic girdle passed through tin insided and came to rest against the skin of the chest. It was located by the large bulge in the skin. The bullet was shot from a Marlin 45-70 and a velocity of 1550 FPS as later checked out on a chronograph. The bullet has only a very slight flatteneng at the nose and rifling marks. I do believe one could relube that bullet, and load and shoot it again.
If I can get either the Lyman #3589 mold to shoot well, or a custom mold very similar to shoor well in one of my .35 Whelens, I will have absolutely no problem with shooting an elk in the shoulder with either bullet which weigh abiut 275 gr. I do have a 250 gr. mold as well, but I might be hesitant on shooting for the shoulder with that one.
While deer are not elk, I have taken 17 deer at last count with either a 175 or 190 gr. bullet from the 30-30 with all animals being one shot kills. The trick is careful shot placement. If it's not a sure shot for cast bullets, don't take it.
Paul B.

PaulB;

Your "take" on the subject of using cast bullets on BIG game agrees completely with mine. I went one step farther and decided that if my cast bullet won't expand and retain a goodly portion of its weight as well, I'm NOT going hunting with it.

Hence my search for a method of casting softpoints. I believe I have it figured out, and will take the .416 out for a field trial this fall. As described in my earlier post, the bullet seems to perform rather well.

I've had a very distasteful experience on Wood Bison with non-expanding bullets, and I want nothing to do with a repeat of that episode. We owe it to the animals we hunt, to kill as effectively and QUICKLY as possible. This means the use of bullets with the ability to penetrate, AND expand.

My thought is, you can have either deep penetration or expansion with cast, but not both. If you go with a harder bullet, I'd expect it to have no problems drilling through both shoulders and exiting, however you'll have a smaller wound channel for soft tissue shots. If you go with a softer cast bullet, I'd expect it to be capable of taking out the onside shoulder and getting into the vitals, but not exiting.

I bet you'll be suprised at the killing power of a 300 gr 35 @ 2000 fps. The only thing you give up to faster jacketed bullets is trajectory, but not alot. 2000 fps makes it an honest 200 yds round.

Since that post wouldn't come up, I'll give you a short rundown. Shot was at about thirty yards. First shot was through the lungs. Second angled through the ribs, and through the liver. Hole through the lungs, was about 3 inches by 2.5 inches. The shot through the liver destroyed about a third of it, leaving a hole nearly 8 inches across.

Try that first link again. You need to scroll down the page. I just tried it, and it worked fine.

quote:

Originally posted by Paul B:
The trick is careful shot placement. If it's not a sure shot for cast bullets, don't take it.
Paul B.

thanks ,Paul

quote:

Originally posted by waksupi:
Try that first link again. You need to scroll down the page. I just tried it, and it worked fine.

scroll down to what? I can not find your thread.
I am ,however getting a pretty good picture here. I guess now we are looking a t the hardness factor ? That makes sence to me.Thanks roger

The whole point of my softpoint .416 experimenting was to eliminate the "either/or" factor ("either" penetration, "or" expansion). I wanted to create a bullet that would give me BOTH penetration and expansion, and I think I have it.

The nose of the .416 bullet I'm casting is PURE LEAD, and the shank is WHEELWEIGHT ALLOY. The WW can be hardened by water-dropping, if desired, without hardening the pure-lead nose. The best part is that there is NO JOINT between the alloys. The bullet is absolutely homogenous, meaning that the nose is unable to break off or otherwise fail.

The water-jug test showed a clear difference in penetration and expansion rate between the water-dropped softpoint and the air-cooled softpoint, but I think that either one will deliver good performance on game.

If the concept works as I expect, we will not have to accept ANY compromises in bullet performance after impact. Note that the air-cooled softpoint delivered 66% weight retention with 200% expansion at muzzle velocity! Gents, those are exactly the parameters which made the Nosler Partition so successful.

Sure do hope to get a chance to prove the concept in the field this fall.

Just my two cents worth. Shot 3 deer last year with a 450 3 1/4 BP rifle last year. 300 grain flat point bullets. All three deer colasped in their tracks. All bullets exited and may still be going.

Bruce B. Have you tried Paco Kelly's idea where hw heat reats the bullets, lubes and sizes them, them places the bullet standing up in a pan of water? He then plays the flame of a propane torch over the exposed nose of the bullets just enough, and then lets the noses air cool which supposedly removes the heat treatment from the nose while keeping the hardness in the submerged portion of the bullet.
I hope I didn't make that too confusing. I'm thinking of trying that with Lyman #3589 and the custom David Mos mold a few of us from the old shooters.com had made up. It's funny, but several dozen people showed a lot of interest in that custom mold, but from what I've heard, only six put their money where their mouth was. Too bad as it is a great mold.
Paul B.

Howdy, Paul.

No, I haven't tried Paco's method. One of the laddies at Cast Boolits referred me to the articles and I read them carefully.

Compared with the method I have devised, I think there are too many variables and possible complications in variable heat-treating such as he espouses.

Being a firm devotee of the K-I-S-S principle, I like my two-alloy method better. There are almost NO temperature variations, meaning little or no variation in hardness of the corresponding parts of several bullets.

Whatever extra effort may be needed to produce a softpoint such as I'm making, only a VERY few softpoint bullets will ever be required, and all shooting practice can be done with the regular all-wheelweight bullets. There's no perceptible change in zero, or weight either for that matter.

On very limited experience, I think I have a workable bullet here.

Bruce, I believe I believe I will fire up my pots tomorrow, and see if I can't make some of those.

quote:

Originally posted by Bren Mk1:On very limited experience, I think I have a workable bullet here.

Elk ? Elk? We don't shoot no stinken Elk! roger

Bartsche;

The thread title deals with CAST BULLETS FOR ELK HUNTING.

We are talking about CAST BULLETS FOR ELK HUNTING. Waksupi lives in ELK country. I'm going hunting ELK in Alberta, with the CAST BULLETS I've created specifically for ELK hunting.

If you have a genuine interest in CAST bullets for hunting ELK, it seems to me that you should be at least slightly interested in what seems to be a fairly new concept in making cast bullets which may not give up any efficiency to the jacketed types, for expansion, penetration and weight retention.

What on earth do you mean, "thread hijacked"?? Or, are YOU hijacking the thread???

quote:

Originally posted by Bren Mk1:
Bartsche;

What on earth do you mean, "thread hijacked"?? Or, are YOU hijacking the thread???

You're putting me on ---right?

I understand that you are amoung the greatest designers in cast bullets but will you try to help me understand what I was asking for?

Have you ever shot a bull elk in the shoulder with a 300 gr gas checked bullet in 35 cal. around 2000 fps. and what was the result? Why don't you pull the burr out of your ass and answer the questtion if you can?

I am interested in your great design and will fallow up on your posting of it"s results in the field. To stay focust ,however, What can You contribute to the subject at hand?Really didn't mean to bend your ego! roger

Bart, Bruce and I have used cast bullets on big game, which apparently you have not. I've killed elk, deer and buffalo with the thirty five bore, and Bruce has killed more wild buffalo in the north of Canada, than you have ever seen. You've recieved good info for effective killing power and bullet performance. Your store bought bullets most likely won't do you any good. If you chose to ignore the information, fine. The tread wasn't hijacked. You apparently don't have the patience to learn what you need to know to use cast bullets effectively. Go back to your jacketed bullets. Some people just belong there. If you don't want the info, delete your thread.

Bartsche: First off, I sure hope you are coming through Katrina OK.
Second, I'm using cast on elk this fall, but it's a muzzleloader tag so I will be using the two-band Enfield and a conical cast dead soft. If I can get that big old trashcan going at 1200 fps or so, I really expect it to do the work.
Best to you, and Bruce, can't wait to hear how your Rigby does. Using that lovely RCBS boolit?

Another thought: I just obtained a No. 1 in .405, and I am very tempted to order the NEI mold No. 225A, a very blunt-nosed 350-grain GC design. I think it would be a candidate for a cast load for big game.

Howdy, Bill.

Yep, still using the 416-350 from RCBS. It shoots well, has a nice meplat for assisting expansion, and enough weight to be effective even at the somewhat-reduced speed.

I killed a number of Barren Ground caribou with a Parker-Hale Enfield Musketoon and pure-lead Lyman 575213 Minie's, about 530 grains at 1100 fps from 100 grains of Curtiss & Harvey FFg, as I recall. The bullets didn't even seem to slow down, giving full penetration and big exits on all the animals. They died very cleanly. Range was always short, of course, under 100 yards in all cases. Long rangers, the Musketoons are not!

A 350 in the .405 will be VERY similar to the Rigby load I'm planning to use this fall. Try making some softpoints, because I believe it will increase the effectiveness quite a bit. Instructions are on the Cast Boolit site. If I didn't think this .416 bullet will expand, I would NOT be hunting with the cast bullet.

Best to you.

quote:

Originally posted by waksupi:
Your store bought bullets most likely won't do you any good. Go back to your jacketed bullets. Some people just belong there. If you don't want the info, delete your thread.

The bullets were obtained from John Benaglio of Colorado an old time cast bullets enthusiist.

I'm soory I tried to stay focust to the point of being a pain in the ass to you and infringing on what is obviously space on this forum that belongs to you and a few of your cohorts. roger

Now, Bart;

I know your amigo John B fairly well (he is "ben1025" on the Cast Boolit Board), and he has visited our home here in Nevada numerous times. Great gentleman, and having a lot more troubles than he deserves, at this point in his life. Hope he comes through OK. I have about twenty pounds of beeswax waiting here for him to pick up, and I trust he'll have plenty of time to use it up in his bullet lube!

You might ask him about a "character reference" for me...?

It's far from uncommon for threads about cast bullets and their uses to wander, because there are SO MANY possiblities. Range? Weight? Alloy hardness? Velocity? Target animal? It would be rather unlikely for any of us to EVER have used exactly the same combination as someone else, so what we have to do is look for indications derived from the experience of other casters and hunters.

There was a thread a year or so back about a moose hunt, wherein the hunter used hard-cast bullets (.35-caliber, I think) which behaved just about like jacketed solids....long thin wound channel, complete penetration, and a LONG time and quite a few rounds required to finally finish the animal. In my book, that was lousy performance, and I said so.

I don't design anything, beyond a tiny bit of input on some of those group orders to Lee for special moulds. What I DO, is try to maximize the utility of my current equipment. I don't have any ego problems with it, but I will say that this particular casting technique for softpoints is something I've never seen used before in about forty years' reading, and the bullets even look a lot better than the two-alloy bullet photos I've seen published by Ross Seyfried. This is NOT to say that no one else has done it; just that I've never run across it myself.

If the cast softpoints weren't working (apparently they are) I wouldn't be taking the .416 rifle. The animals deserve our best efforts toward killing cleanly.

There is also a technique for softening just the noses of hard-cast bullets, and there's a test of some of these bullets reported today on the Cast Boolit Board. Thread title is "Softpoint Update", I believe. This is something you could probably do with a few of the bullets you have from JB. I would NOT take them hunting as they are, but softening the noses looks fairly simple.

If your bullet expands a bit and still holds together, there's not an elk in the world that will survive one in the right place, and I intend to put mine right through the shoulder(s) as well, given the opportunity. Breaking bone is what puts big animals on the ground NOW, and I'm not a believer in "behind the 'front' shoulder shots". I wonder where the "rear shoulder" is located?

Good hunting to you..

quote:

Originally posted by Bren Mk1:
Now, Bart;


You might ask him about a "character reference" for me...?

I think there is no need for a character reference. From your last response I can tell you are a mature sincere individual. I hope our trails cross in the future and that I can refrain from being anxious and less tolerant in my posting. It's the Engineer in me I guess.

The last I talked to Ben he was giveing up casting and shooting rifle bullets. In fact he had already sold some of his equipment. I for one do not think these Golden years are so great.That is experience and observation talking. roger

Roger. There is one way you could test yor bullets. Get a bunch of old newpapes, and loosely tie them in bundles about six inches thick. Soak them thoroughly. The reason for tying them loosely is so they'll absirb more water and the will swell up to make a fairly tight bunble. I'd suggest at least enough for a two foot thick set of bundles, but three or four foot woud be a lot better.
Set them out at the range you plan on shooting and place a stout piece of hardword, birch would probably be the least expensive to simulate the shoulder blade. With careful shot placement, you should be able to test four bullets in the wet papers. Not a perfect solution, but it will give you a general idea in seeing if those hard bullets will perform properly. Elk shoulder bones are really tough, but if the bullet works, then I'd try for a shoulder shot. Bone fragments make nice secondary projectiles.
I agree with Bruce B. that on big animals, go for the shoulder. The amount of meat lost is negligable compared to losing the whole animal.
Paul B.

BrenMK1---Darn Bruce I have never met you,but having rubbed elbows with you for 7 years or so,on various forums,I bet I could give a character reference. YES,you are a character. You have hosted cast bullet shooters at your place for several years and all that have met you not only give glowing reports about you,but your wife and daughter as well. I know you lived in the wilds of Canada for several years,so you have to be tough. Not only tough,but highly experienced in taking game animals. Bunch of experience. Then you take a van and make it a motorized reloading bench and shooting bench. Now I ask? Would any except a very dedicated shooter do such? Read lots of experience. To live in the frozen parts of Canada,work in mines and have such a motorized shooting vehicle,could you be described other than as a character? A character,but one that knows of what he speaks.

Alright C-man is he bribeing you with Elk Steaks and a cold one for that reference.
I could almost hear Glory Glory Haleluia playing softly in the background.

seriously I love you guys, keep it up.
BTW Dan said he was planning on useing his 357 levergun on his Moose hunt. It'll be interesting to see how that goes.

Case in point.
I cast,
you cast...
Now what were we talking about.
Elk Steaks. That's right.
I still like my Italian dressing marinade then grilled over an open fire in the back yard.

Lar45---Is he bribing me with elk steaks? NO darn it--if he were the report would be a sizzling--not just a little glow. I was trying to avoid him a sending me some horse meat from Canada. Actually,just a few tid bits of information I have gleaned from a far after reading his posts for about 7 years.

Stay with a caliber of .35 or larger for Elk. You can infact have both expansion AND penetration if you use a soft lead nose coupled with a hard lino base. I've cast a few of these in .45 calibers, though their a pain in the butt, but they work great! Some custom mould makers will make you a soft nose mould. It has a nose only cavity that you cast pure lead in, then transfer the nose to the full bullet cavity and pour a harder alloy on top of it. I rarely use a jacketed bullet in any caliber over .35 caliber these days. O' big cast bullets take an Elk just fine. Good shootin'

Bart

I lived in elk country for 18 years and have killed 18 on license and dispatched quite a few other crippled ones as an LEO. I've shot elk and deer with all sorts of handguns, rifles using different bullets. I have recently built a 35 Remington on a M91 Mauser action. It shoots a soft cast 35-200-FN RCBS bullet that weighs 214 gr quite well at 2122 fps. Expansion tests are so far showing excellent penetration with good expansion out to 200 yards. Based on several elk (rocky mountain type killed in NE Oregon) killed with a similar cast 220 gr bullet at about the same velocity out of a .35 Whelen I'd have no problem hunting elk with my .35 Remington and the RCBS bullet. Since I don't do Texas Heart shots it should have all the penetration and expansion needed to cleanly kill elk at a reasonable range with those heart/lung shots I would take.

Lots of good advise here on how to make good cast bullets that will expand. I have killed a couple deer with lessor calibers than .30 using cast bullets but consider .30 cal to be minimal for deer and .35 for elk when considering a medium to heavy caliber cast bullet that is maleable to expand and not shatter or slough off exansion petals.

Larry Gibson

quote:

waksupi

i get a chuckle out of guys saying there post was hyjacked. This is a public fourm and in no way shape or form do you own a post here. If I was even a half way intellegent man id sit back and listen to what someone like waksupi has to say as he probably knows as much about cast bullets and game as the rest of the guys combined. If you have to weed through a few paragraphs that dont interst you so be it. But be thankfull he took the time to try to help you.

Yes, they work very well. Do a double lung + heart, break both shoulders or texas heart shot and the elk won't go far.

I wonder how many of the contributors to this thread kept up across the 2 1/2 year time jump? What I really want is to go hunt those white tails that wieghed 400 pounds back in 2005. They must be pretty big by now.
BD

quote:

Originally posted by Paul H:
My thought is, you can have either deep penetration or expansion with cast, but not both. If you go with a harder bullet, I'd expect it to have no problems drilling through both shoulders and exiting, however you'll have a smaller wound channel for soft tissue shots. If you go with a softer cast bullet, I'd expect it to be capable of taking out the onside shoulder and getting into the vitals, but not exiting.

You can have both. Cast the nose of lead and the body of a hard alloy and get Nosler Partition performance from cast. There are a variety of methods of doing this and some dispute about which is best, but it's very doable.

For a 300 grain .358, I'd use about 80 grains of lead for the nose.