[Per Paul's suggestion, I opened a new thread which originated from "38/55 Mountain molds"-- and pasted in Forrest's remarks which are directed to shooten long range with large caliber rifles. Old thread was misaligned from pics and loading longish for some.]

Aladin and Sky,

you mention:

I'll tell ya what would be interesting'; a continuation of this thread with you talking about wind reading and all the technique required to shooten at that level.

F: I'm not a very scientific fellow where judging and compensation for "condition" is concerned. I've read some other people expound about how to judge mirage, how much wind at what quarter will not only cause left/right defection (and how much) but cause shots to go high or low and this depending on whether you have right or left hand twist rifling. On and on.

Also, folks will talk about the high/low affects of lighting; shooting in partly cloudy conditions for example where you shoot in sunshine for one shot and shade the next during a single relay.

As for me, I have to keep it simpler than all these things: If I try to juggle fifty or sixty considerations down there on the firing line, not mentioning holding and trigger control, I'd need much longer than the allotted time to figure out where to hold before each shot.

After shooting these matches for a few years I have the firm idea that a man has to start out with a good dependable load. This might be considered an "Of Course you do!" type idea, but I would go further.

You see, once a fellow sits down on the firing line lots of things have been done already: The load is "known", you've gotten the basic sight settings written down for the distances you'll be shooting, you've gotten some shooting in with some reliable spotters working with you, the prevailing condition is at least guessable for the first shot and now comes the time for Record Shooting!

During the relay, whether you get on with the first shot or not, there will be some doubt creep in; you'll wonder at some point if you should make a slight sight adjustment for real or imagined changes in condition. Here is where the load, and in particular the bullet performance is of note: You have to believe in your carefully worked up combination such when these doubts come along you none-the-less hold center, trusting that any such small difference in drift or lighting (real or imaginary) will be accommodated by the reliable performance you so diligently worked for before the match and the sight setting you used to make the previous hit.

I say this because I've second-guessed myself out of (way too many) hits, thinking I saw or felt condition differences that really weren't there, or if there, not enough to toss a miss off one side or the other.

Having said that, I'll have to make the disclaimer that no rule is absolute, not even this one. Certainly there will be condition changes that do require sight changes and a fellow has to have the guts to get aggressive about cranking them in at times.

This should be enough for starting an exchange about "condition" shooting. To discuss other factors, something about personal choices should be said. I have found that I do my best cross-stick shooting with a big, wide blade as the front sight. This is because it is impractical to adjust for every little change in condition. With the wide blade I may hold-off a certain amount while maintaining elevation. This technique is not recommended if you use an aperture front sight! If an aperture is your best choice for other reasons (like better target definition) you will have to crank in even small changes with the rear sight, and lord help you if you forget what little graduation was the prevailing "zero" for the basic condition you're dealing with!

One thing I began using a couple years ago is my E6B Flight computer to calculate Density Altitude on the firing line. "DA" is pressure altitude (altitude above mean sea level compensated for nonstandard pressure) which in turn is compensated for any non-standard temperature prevailing at the time. For example one year at Quigley I set my sights for the 800 yard "Buffalo" in the cool of the morning. By afternoon when my relay was up it was 35 degrees warmer, changing DA by about 1200 feet. I adjusted my sights down 0.060 and got a hit with my first record shot; everyone else was missing way high with sights set to match numbers recorded in cooler temperatures.

A&S: Do you know the lay of the land by now [ie the Q] and watch a particular feature to pick up wind speed direction etc?

F: No wind flags at Quigley! ..However, you may sometimes be able to see the US and Montana flags waving at the pavilion from some of the firing points! I was mighty glad they were there a time or two.

At Quigley there isn't even much vegetation to give a man ideas about what is happening down-range. If you have a gifted spotter and you trust him (!) he may be able to give you some useful information about the mirage he sees through the spotting scope.

Mostly, a fellow has to pick out a shooter or two on his relay and "go to school" on his shooting. If he is hitting well and then suddenly looses one off one side or the other you may enter that information in your mind and, depending on your own idea of condition and the other fellow's reliability, make an adjustment in your sight setting. This method works well if you have to good luck to shoot with a group of men steadily in practice, as we do here in Sheridan: We have gotten to know one another well enough to provide this kind of support on the firing line. If you shoot with us or close enough to see what is going on, so will you.

S: How to you prepare for the offhand-- any practice drills?

F: I have finally gotten the "answer" for off hand practice: I bought a CPA Stevens 44 � with two barrels. One in 44/63 Ballard, the other in 22RF. Same weight, same balance, same action, stock and trigger. I have hopes practicing with the 22RF in our 100 shot indoor offhand scheutzen matches this winter will improve my off hand score this summer!

In times previous to the Stevens I always loaded plenty of offhand practice loads in the rifle intended for match shooting. These were always stuff like shooting pistol bullets over 7 grains Bullseye at 50 feet indoors or an easily cast GC design at our offhand "Bear" at 440 yards outside.

Offhand is always toughest of all for me: If I could clean the offhand I think I'd be happier than shooting 24 straight off the sticks!

All for now, good morning,
Forrest

Aladin:

There you are!

Roger the exit of the old thread for this one. Very nice too.

Thanks for bringing the last post over here; now we're set for some more exchange and participation by more of the troops. I'm certainly very much interested in reading everyone's ideas about judging "condition" at long range for example.

Long range shooting necessarily brings in consideration of long range rifles, cartridges, bullets and loads: My very favorite subjects of all.

Good morning,
Forrest

Gentlemen-

I would like to ask about the technique employed in the BPCR type games when shooting off crossed sticks.

Many of the pictures I have seen of folks shooting in this discipline have their barrels rested directly of the sticks. In every other shooting discipline I am aware of where rests are used - the support is provided under the forearm. With rifles featuring two piece stocks as most/all the traditional single shot rifles employ - the rest point is located as far back toward the receiver as possible. Are my observations about this technique correct and if yes - why is it done this way?

Following on regarding cross sticks shooting - I have noted that some of the "sticks" are simply crossed and the rifle rests directly on the sticks where they form an "X". Other designs I have seen use a leather strap between the sticks where the rifle lays supported by the tensioned strap. Any comments about the differences in these designs and which is better/why?

Is there a particular way to set-up the cross sticks? Some I've seen have large spikes at the gound end - others none. Any rule of thumb for how wide the stance? Percent of the sticks above/below the cross point?

Many thanks!

Sky C.

Sky says;

I would like to ask about the technique employed in the BPCR type games when shooting off crossed sticks.

F: The cross-stick rest and its use is an individual thing, as you might expect. I'll say a few things about how I've done it and then address some of the particulars of the technique you're interested in.

When came the time to shoot off the cross-sticks I went to Ace Hardware and bought two one inch hardwood dowels, 36 inches long. I took my rasp and filed halfway through each of them at the point I determined for the pivot point, then I drilled a 5/16s hole through both of them at that location and put a bolt through the hole. For the spikes I filed off the heads of two big spikes � inch dia and placed them in holes drilled in the ends of the dowels, securing them with pressure by use of hose clamps. For support of the rifle I used another set of hose clamps to clamp a nylon web belt such as is used by the Navy for holding up uniform trousers right in the "V" formed by the sticks. Now, if I were to change anything I would make the spikes longer.

In use these spikes are stuck in the ground and I hold the rifle's forend firmly in the "V" with my left hand, wrapping my fingers all the way around both the forend and crossed sticks, while grasping the small of the stock and trigger with my right.

This position then permits me to place the left elbow on my left knee and the right elbow on the right knee, providing additional stability.

Naturally I've seen the fellows shooting with their barrels resting in a leather strap which is in turn hung from pegs stuck in the upper ends of their sticks. The shooters in this case usually sit either cross-legged or spraddle-legged on the ground. I've never understood this technique. It always seemed highly unstable to me and I've never done it that way. Perhaps someone else will come on-line and say why they do it that way.

S: Following on regarding cross sticks shooting - I have noted that some of the "sticks" are simply crossed and the rifle rests directly on the sticks where they form an "X". Other designs I have seen use a leather strap between the sticks where the rifle lays supported by the tensioned strap.. Any comments about the differences in these designs and which is better/why?

F: Again, I've seen the leather strap in use. Some shooters say they have found a "sweet spot" in the rifle's harmonics right where they rest it in the leather. They may be right, but I know that I could never get my rifle to sit in the same spot each shot given all the other variables there are to contend with.

S: Is there a particular way to set-up the cross sticks? Some I've seen have large spikes at the ground end - others none.

F: As I said, my spikes are on the short side. This is very good if the ground is either hard or (like now) frozen, but the longer spikes allow the men to shove them far enough into the ground that the sticks will stand in place by themselves when the ground is soft enough. This gives a certain degree of stability in itself and when you're not shooting you may rest your rifle in the "V" and walk away, knowing it won't fall over. Short or long, a fellow really should have spikes!

S: Any rule of thumb for how wide the stance? Percent of the sticks above/below the cross point?

F: The stance and thereby the height of the sticks should be carefully determined before drilling the pivot hole. You have to be in a comfortable sitting position with the rifle in place and the stick's ends should be set about as wide as the pivot point is above the ground.

In BPCR shooting it is legal to shoot from "prone cross stick rest", or "belly sticks". I have a set of these sticks and find that although they DO provide a certain additional degree of stability they are tough for anyone over the age of 23 to use and even more to the point, the little difference between sitting up and laying down makes a big difference in your ability to feel and judge changes in "condition" on the firing line.

Good afternoon,
Forrest

Forrest how to do you go about developing a load? How much ES is acceptable? What primer and case prep? etc. TIA.

Aladin:

A: Forrest how to do you go about developing a load?

F: Nothing special really. You know this stuff; working with powders of proper burning rate, bullets that have the best Sectional Density/Ballistics Coefficient for the purpose(s) they're intended for.. All that sort of thing.

After loading for the long range buffalo rifle game for some time I find that my ideas about a "good" load are pretty clear. A "good" long range load has to have the lowest ES or SD as I can manage without restoring to shooting Black Powder.

The fellows shooting BP do have something of an advantage over smokeless in so far as low SD numbers go. This is one of the main things that keeps Black in the running. (Black has won the Quigely two years in a row now)

A: How much ES is acceptable?

F: I hate to see much more than 10 or 15 ft/sec ES and I will phase and do some checking if I find SD exceeding 6 or 8. (The BP boys can count on amazing stuff like 3s and 4s in SD!)

A: What primer and case prep?

F: I always clean primer pockets and run the cases through the vibro-cleaner as a part of the reloading process.

I try not to get compulsive about it but I do weigh cases to the extent necessary to get my 50 "Match" grade at +/- 0.5 grains in a box for those times I know I'll be happy I to have them when shooting record.

Otherwise, in practice I shoot straight production stuff, all R/P in 45/70, 44/63 and 40/65.

If there is anything characteristic about the way I shoot its my way of settling on a certain set of components and just staying with them for years at a time.

It seems that I used up all my interest in tinkering with loads long ago. Now, I settle on one load that gives me the required accuracy, stability and reliability necessary for shooting the long range buffalo matches and then just keep on shooting it.

If trouble arises that is plenty of time to go bring out the load-tinkering again. Generally I enjoy the shooting more than testing aspect of this sport: I like the unending challenge of trying to out-guess the "condition" on any given day. I might even learn how to do it one of these days.

Good afternoon,
Forrest

Forrest the ES on that posted target from yesterday made 19 ES but the SD had to be maybe 5-6. The machine we use doesn't compute SD but throwing out the hi and low for the other 8 rds made 11 ES. Point here is I was going to mark those 2 cases and watch them the next time but forgot with all the wind and cold of yesterday.

I partial size cases-- hoping to uniform neck tension more to the lower end. Using bullet engravement for initial burn resistance. I do not tumble cases but do run a brush in those necks with a hand drill. Pockets cleaned for sure-- if shooten BLK I take a drill bit and make sure all the residue is otta that flash hole.

Aladin:

A: I partial size cases-- hoping to uniform neck tension more to the lower end. Using bullet engravement for initial burn resistance..

F: Yes. I do a simular routeen with my cases and loads. I think I wrote about using the IGC as a final component under the PB bullets. The unsized IGC scapes the inside case wall clean and at the same time prevents the (so carefully prepared!) bullet bases from being deformed by being seated into (possibly non-uniform) case necks.

Good morning,
Forrest

Forrest have you tried any crimping with your loads? I thought of giving the Lee crimp die a looksee.

Aladin:

Have you tried any crimping with your loads? I thought of giving the Lee crimp die a looksee.

F: No. I've never liked the idea of damaging the bullets at all, let alone on purpose by crimping them in place.

Even with bullets that have a crimp groove in them I don't like the idea of the bullets receiving an unnecessary scrape on their way out of the case mouth.

In the 44/63 I do the final seating carefully such that the slight bell needed on the case mouths to seat bullets is pushed in so that it just meets the bullet, I do not say crimp, just pressed in so that it touches. This makes for a neat and tidy cartridge with all grease grooves covered and no place for dirt to stick or hide if the wind is blowing dust around as it will at times.

Good morning,
Forrest

Gentlemen-

More good information that you are sharing - as usual.

I have a question regarding bullet bases and performance...

In a correspondence I had with Mr. Tom Gray (noted bench rest shooter within the CBA), he was discussing the subject of "bumping" CB's to square the GC's onto the bullets bases. Having the bases square he noted is a relatively significant factor to BR accuracy. While we are discussing accuracy issues as relate primarity to PB bullets here - there was something in his comments that has raised a question for me.

He noted that in the process of bumping the bullets to square the GC - it was important not to overdo - that applying too much pressure during the operation would result in the GC base (which is normally slightly radiused on it edges) becoming sharp and that it was shown to be detrimental to the accuracy in his testing. (This gentleman is good about keeping records and working to limit variables in his experiments.)

This then is my question - what is the desired condition of the bullet base? I have always shot for extremely crisp, sharp bases without any hint of a radius. Mr. Gray's observation though has me wondering whether this is the correct approach. Although I have gotten a radius on the base when tring different pouring techniques - I don't know how consistent I could be in achieving this - nor do I know whether there is indeed a translation between the observations with a GC bullet to one of PB confirguration.

Have either of you gentlemen tried any experiements along these lines?

Best regards-

Sky

L to Rt. Check installed with a Luber/sizer. Check on but not crimped-- note the wave on the check's flat. Rt- bumped flat, note the reduction in radius and raised edges from the bullet being shot thru the bore.

IMO you can't tell any difference in accuracy between the crimped with original radius [left bullet] from an uncrimped or bumped slug-- in factory sporter barrels that I shooten. I think in a BR rig Gray mentioned you could. BTW that rt bullet is a BR bullet sample from Gray. Note the 'bridged' lead trail on this sample-- the rifling displacing alloy into the lube groove. I think this setup would lead in a average bore or with average lube.

Sky,

S: This then is my question - what is the desired condition of the bullet base?..

F: In shooting PB bullets the bases should be square with the centerline of the bullet, sure, we know that.

I used to run bullets through the Wosika Coax tool to assure squarness and to taper them to fit throats. It worked but added lots of procedures to loading.

Now, I count on the mold to cast bases "close enough" to square, and they certainly do for the kind of shooting I'm interested in and I pay attention to other factors particular to the game like:

In buffalo rifle shooting many men shoot with the under-bullet 0.050 wad. I do myself when shooting 40 caliber. In 44 and 45 I shoot with the inverted gas check.

Whatever the method I think it is very important to have the wad or the check fall off the bullet right away, hopefully at the same place for all bullet fired. So, I make sure there is no grease or other "stickum" between the two components when I load them into charged cases.

As a digression about checks I can say that when I recover spent inverted checks from ahead of the firing line I find that they have all been "ironed" to show exactly whatever irregularities were on the bases before firing.

When a fellow uses a wad under the bullet it takes up a critical 0.050: That distance between the bullet base and the crown of the muzzel before the exit of muzzel blast. This, some shooters say, reduces the importance of base squareness.

Gotta go, good morning,
Forrest

Good morning gentlemen-

My shooting equipment falls into the factory gun category too. I tend to study other shooting disciplines looking for elements from each that may pay practical dividends for the kind of shooting I do. Bench Rest shooters employ many reloading techniques that are beyond my equipment's capability to realize the benefits. For me then - some of the steps are simply time sinks that provide no practical benefit. Others can provide some practical benefit and I take full advantage of those that demonstrate their value on the target.

I happened to be reading through "Gun Notes - Vol 2" last evening and noted Mr. Keith commenting on bullet bases for jacketed bullets... From his Feb. 1977 article... "Flat-base bullets with rounded corners on the base are usually slightly more accurate than true, square-base types." It makes me wonder whether PB bullets would benefit from a slight radius on its base (assuming no wads, etc.)

I believe Forrest's comments about the use of wads or IGC's seem that they may be another way of skinning this cat. A practical solution yeilding the same result. I think though that this approach must be limited to straight walled cartridges or at least cases where the wad/IGC can be contained in the case neck with surety.

I am in need of a lathe and skills to use it! I would like to build a simple swage die for CB's to use in an arbor press or reloading press that could apply a consistent slight radius to the bases of a bullet and run some experiments. Perhaps a correctly shaped plunger in a sizer die could do the trick and be accomplished in a "bumping" operation. Perhaps when I grow up and can afford the toy & time!

Best regards-

Sky

Sky,

S: I would like to build a simple swage die for CB's to use in an arbor press or reloading press that could apply a consistent slight radius to the bases of a bullet and run some experiments..

F: I've returned from the Denver run. Enroute I thought of a couple other aspects of the bullet bases I have seen.

In snow shooting and recovery of spent bullets fired over the card wad and full-power loads I have seen the corners of the bases become very sharp. And then there is the aspect of fins f
formed where the rifling pressed material back into the base area. This kind of thing precludes much value in figuring of the flat and square bases of the bullets before firing: They don't wind up that way going out the muzzel. Enter the card wad!

Then after looking at bullets recovered from full power loads over the IGC I see the bases actually concaved inward, leaving the corners of the bases on the edge of a dish shaped base, and, this with the fins from rifling left as well!

You see why I don't bother with the various ways to fiddle with bases: I just don't think such operations help much after seeing what serious hammering bullets get as they travel down the bore.

The idea of a rounded corners would get past lots of this sort of thing and may be why such bullets produce better accuracy for some shooters.

Is there any one out there who has compared simular bullets with, for example, flat bases fired against bevel based bullets?

Good afternoon,
Forrest

Forrest-

Thanks for sharing your actual observations. That the bullets exit the bore with trailing "fins" surprises me - but that is why careful observation is of more value than theorizing in my book.

My imagination would have suggested to me that finning would not have occured presuming that pressure at the base of the bullet was relatively uniform across the surface area exposed to the powder's gas pressure. However your observation surely impacts my "thinking".

I must admit to still being somewhat puzzled by the apparent difference in accuracy observed by others where square bases vs. radiused bases are concerned. There is much to this game beyond what meets the eye!

Best regards-

Sky

Sky,

S: Thanks for sharing your actual observations..

F: You're welcome. Its always good to see your post.

S: I must admit to still being somewhat puzzled by the apparent difference in accuracy observed by others where square bases vs. radiused bases are concerned. There is much to this game beyond what meets the eye!

F: Yes. You might back up in this thread and look at the third bullet Aladin has there. The one that looks as if it has been fired has the bumps in the gas check where fins (or bumps) appear more sharply in a PB bullet.

These bumps or fins would (IMO) cause the muzzel blast to "catch" or buffet the bullet as it exits the barrel than any small amount of variation in bases being off-square.. Of course it would be nice to have everything perfect too, if I could, I would.

Good morning,
Forrest

Sky I was looking for a shooten report about those Applegate spitzers. Any news yet?

Good morning Aladin-

Re: Shooting report for the Applegate bullets...

I have been working on getting a batch cast for Forrest to run through their paces. Over the next couple of weeks - we are going to try to hook up and get these into his hands for testing although he has advised that for a reasonable eval - timing will be somewhat dependent on weather.

Re: a "good" batch of bullets... I have stabilized the casting technique and am getting very consistent results now BUT the bullets are not perfect. Under close scrutiny, it is appraent that the bullets are not completely filling out. There is a place on the bullets (same for both cavities) where the bands around the lube grooves are just not as "crisp" as they should be. It's something that shows up best when you lube the bullet and you can see the slightly uneven fill of the grooves due to the slightly "soft" edges in the bands. I don't think it will affect performance but it is an irritation to me. The mould is clean, and generally behaving very well. Although the mould appears to be well vented - it is behaving as if this could be the problem. The other hint is that the bullets stick in the cavities a bit and require some handle tapping to free them which may indicate a slight burr. I think I'll treat the cavities to a little "polish-lapping" which should elimitate the tendency for the bullets to stick in the cavities - and just maybe will solve the other issue as well.

By the way - were you able to open the table of Gravimetric Densities for powders?

Would also like to hear how you go about inserting the photos in your posts. I'd like to be able to add this kind of info as well from time to time as the pictures ARE worth a thousand words!

Best regards-

Sky

No Sky I can't open that Density file. I do have the info for 5744 now, so that's not imperative but if you get a chance to send it PDF it'd be appreciated. Any time is fine.

To insert pics you click on the image icon below the reply box, insert the URL of the location your pic is stored and your done. I have a Fototime account for my storage which appears to work great. Easy to do-- your ahead of me on computer knowledge so going to a service like Fototime should get you going.

Fototime Picture Storage

Re: Lapping molds. If Rob finds out.... need I say? Just kidding... Be careful NOT to lap a bevel on the base edge. I take a file and turn that edge down when doing such with the lap slug.

Do you lube your pins when casting?? Other thing to try is a clean eraser on the cavity edges.. just a lite stroking. Lapping that brass might chg dia's with too much turning also, as the brass is soft to say the obvious.

I'd admit to liking the chance to try some of those myself. Maybe 20 or so-- don't have to be first rate for Q. I'd send PO money also.