The 6.5 bullet designed for the 6.5x55 Swede rifle as made by the Lee company was originally designed by 45 2.1. It was not designed by Oldfeller as said by some of the Castboolet Forum members recently. It's in my opinion that the bullet fits the Swede rifle as though the Swedes themselves designed it. It's perfect. Apparently there are a few non standard Swede chambers out there or the bullet is too fat dropped from the current Lee molds for them.

I've recent started testing of the original Cruise Missile with the proper smaller dimensions in my 96 Swede rifle and am so far getting very good results. Currently I'm getting 1 inch groups at 100 yards and at "velocity".

There is what appears to be a full size bearing band at the base of the nose on the CM. It's not full size on the original correct size CM. It runs about .265. Then the nose steps down to .261. That .261 area is that diameter going forward for about .125, then the nose starts tapering down rapidly. That whole nose in front of that .265 band is a tad over .500 or 1/2 inch. It's easy to see why the current grossly over sized CM presents problems fitting the Swede chambers because those nose measurements are going to be very fat causing the bullet to be seated deeper past the neck base of the case. I think it would be better to make a swage die to reduce that nose measurement rather then shave the mold blocks and take area off the base of the bullet. That upsets the balance of the bullet and kind of makes that long nose more of a bore rider. Not good for accuracy.

1 inch groups at a 100 yds? Surely a typo---maybe .1" or maybe 1000 yds---can't be anything but a one hole group.

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
1 inch groups at a 100 yds? Surely a typo---maybe .1" or maybe 1000 yds---can't be anything but a one hole group.

As usual, just plumb amazing.....and "at speed" Joe!

Joe is quite correct about the current over sized CM. I've a couple hundred cast and the nose is definately too large for a proper fit in any of my 4 6.5 Swede throats. I have a nose sizer but have not got around to sizing or testing them. Should be interesting when i do.

Larry Gibson

Hi Larry...hey you getting any closer to moving yet? Getting to the wrong time of the year if you are with the holidays rapidly approaching.

Yes finding out some interesting things with the CM. Like it's very sensitive to the buffer. I will tell you the powder I've been working with for the CM as of lately and that is the 867 (I've been telling you about that, remember, you need to get some and Wideners has it on sale) and the IMR 7828. Jumptrap tried to tell people about the 7828 when he was on the forum.

My one inch group at 2110 was consistent enough that I could see differences in loading techniques, such as changing the buffer or little tweaks in the powder charge, and different primers such as standard and magnum. Then when I went back to the load it went back to the one inch groups. By the way a change in lube type made a big change also

I really do think that if the nose wasn't so fat on those fat mold CM's that they possibly could be usable with sizing. The nose the right size would definitely let the bullet be seated much further out. We both know that you can really size down a bullet from our experience in sizing down from one caliber to another.

I've found some real good information on Swede rifle and especially the jacketed bullet shooting from them. I know this isn't cast but the information may tell why the some rifles have trouble shooting cast. That is there appears some Swedes do indeed have tight or different dimension chamber, as you have stated one or more of yours does, but they are really really in the minority. I would believe that Oldfeller and 45 2.1 may not have run across any when they were taking data to design the CM.
Another interesting note is many of these jacketed shooters were getting really small groups when things came together such as 1/4 inch or less. I remember you doubting that any milsurp rifle capable of 1/2 groups with cast and I'm not exactly sure what you said about milsurps being able to shoot 1/2 with with jacketed...but many Swedes do and smaller groups too.

Joe

I have put the move off for a while. However, I will be traveling in the SW most of the winter.

Yes there are variations in the Swede chambers. I don't know if it was by design or just different reamers. Frankly I thought it was usless for 45 2.1 to tel me what I really had when he was measuring/slugging the chamber and throat.....oh well....all water under the bridge.

I do not doubt that 6.5 Swedes can shoot extremely well. I have won several military matches with my own M96. With iron sights I can shoot close to moa consistently with it. I'm sure if I put a scope on it it would do a little better. I have shot numerous .5 or smaller 3 and 5 shot groups with my scope sighted 6.5 Swedes (I have 2 or them) but I don't call them that "accurate" be cause the next group could be moa. What i do say is that both do shoot consistent moa or better. That is proven and is realistic. One or two small groups of 3 or even 5 shots do not show the actual accuracy level of a rifle. Neither does an "average" group size. If I shoot 5 five shot groups with a rifle (I prefer 3 ten shot groups to really know) of .5, .65, .78, .87 and 1" the "averge is .76". If I call that rifle a .76" accurate rifle the expectation is every shot then goes into or under .76" but that just isn't so. in this actual example 16 of the 25 shots actually went into .76". The other 9 shots were outside the .76" So how do you know when the round your firing is one of the 16 or one of the 9? You don't, thus it is more realistic to say the rifle is actually a 1" rifle. That way you have a much better realization of the accuracy potential of the rifle and ammuntion. See what I mean....a single 3 or even 5 shot group doesn't cut it....to me any way.

Larry Gibson

Yup, I agree on the groups and then judging what accuracy the rifle (and the shooter) have.

Back to that CM. If you think about it, with it's very long peculiar nose, it's a bore rider in a sense. Yes even if the bullet is the correct size from the mold that nose will engrave some. That doesn't matter if the bullet starts straight into the bore. But when one cuts 3/16ths of an inch or more off the base of it they are very much turning it into a bore rider with an incorrect nose diameter.....and they expect it to shoot well??? I'm not by any means saying you did that Larry because I know you know better then that. Yes by chopping off the rear section of the CM you've destroyed the balance of that bullet.

I will be interested in seeing how your CM's do after you nose size them.

By the way I find the CM to be not only a perfect fit for my Swede, but also for my 6.5x54MS, and to a big degree my 6.5 Jap. Amazing how those three have nearly the same freebore. I haven't tried a Carcano and nor will I buy one. The only Carcano I will own is the Japanese 38 Type I.

Keep me informed of your Swede and CM results.

Larry 16 out of 25 are going into .76 and you ask how you know if the round you are firing is going into .76? Easy. Just start shooting the 25 until 9 go outside then the rest will be in the .76. When you get to 24 and you have only 8 out of the .76 then your last is going to be out---bummer.

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
Larry 16 out of 25 are going into .76 and you ask how you know if the round you are firing is going into .76? Easy. Just start shooting the 25 until 9 go outside then the rest will be in the .76. When you get to 24 and you have only 8 out of the .76 then your last is going to be out---bummer.

Bummer is right

Joe

I haven't cut anything off the CM bullets I have. They are cast in the mould as it comes from Lee/Midway. I haven't shot any of them yet in anything.

Yes by chopping off the rear section of the CM you've destroyed the balance of that bullet.

Are you saying the newer oversized mould is shortened?

My plan is to size the nose to .260 which with be a tinght fit in my M38 with slight engraving as you mention. The driving bands sized at .268 with then just bump into the taper of the throat at the right seating depth (GC at the bottom of the neck) allowing a good crimp in a groove.

Larry Gibson

Hi Larry,

No, not at all am I saying you are cutting off the base of the CM. I know there is one, possibly more, member on the forum that modified his recent fat LEE CM mould by machining it down to make a shorter bullet. I know you know better then that.

Do you have the first series of the CM mould or the later fat one?

That .260 you are going to size the nose too sounds pretty good. I want to see how it shoots in your 38 Swede.

You buy any of that 867 yet? Wideners still has it on sale for $49 per 8 pound. Better grab some before it's all gone. I was getting some results with the 5010 but I'm down to the bottom of the can and you don't see it for sale much now. I've stocked up on the 867 this time though, won't be caught short.

Try for 2100 to 2250 fps with that CM of yours. That's the range I've been shooting in and my bullets are the 50/50 AC alloy. Actually I've been seating my bullets to just touch the cone with a tad resistance in closing the bolt.

Joe

I've read where someone had faced off the mould one driving band so it wouldn't seat below the neck but it's not me. The bullets I've cast are from a borrowed mould and I'm sure it's a later fat one as the DBs are .271 - .273 and the nose is .263 - .264. I haven't got any of that powder yet. Hope to this next month.

Larry Gibson

Yes Larry, I said it wasn't you. I think shaving one band off like you said would be just about 3/16 of an inch or there about and that's what they did is shaved the mould.

I believe the lube grooves should be deep enough that you can size that fat bugger down too. Don't forget as you know it will grow in length on you so watch out for that.

When you think you'll get around to testing that?

Never had to shave a mold--none grew a beard nor any hair.

Ray, you mean to tell me you never cast and you mould grew "whisker" come on.


.....well at least the bullet did!!!

Larry, In that pictures Buckshot always post for the CM, currently posted in that 6.5 bullet threat, it appears his Swede is about the same as mine for chamber dimensions. The seated CM looks about right, so that's about how far out it should be seated.

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:
Yes Larry, I said it wasn't you. I think shaving one band off like you said would be just about 3/16 of an inch or there about and that's what they did is shaved the mould.

I believe the lube grooves should be deep enough that you can size that fat bugger down too. Don't forget as you know it will grow in length on you so watch out for that.

When you think you'll get around to testing that?

Joe, That was me that cut down one of the oversized Midsouth CM moulds to make it chamber in my Swedes without sticking the GC below the shoulder/neck junction. My mould throws straight WW metal at .2715" on all the bands and the bore-rider section is oversized as well. Although the shortened CM seems to fit my guns quite well (based on measuring an impact slug of the chamber/leade) I haven't had much luck keeping them from going through the targets sideways.

I traded a number of these shortened castings to a fellow to shoot in his Carcano and he reports excellent accuracy and stability with that particular gun. I've concluded there are better designs available for the Swedes, but you already knew that.

Gear

quote:

Originally posted by Ian Harris:

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:
Yes Larry, I said it wasn't you. I think shaving one band off like you said would be just about 3/16 of an inch or there about and that's what they did is shaved the mould.

I believe the lube grooves should be deep enough that you can size that fat bugger down too. Don't forget as you know it will grow in length on you so watch out for that.

When you think you'll get around to testing that?

Joe, That was me that cut down one of the oversized Midsouth CM moulds to make it chamber in my Swedes without sticking the GC below the shoulder/neck junction. My mould throws straight WW metal at .2715" on all the bands and the bore-rider section is oversized as well. Although the shortened CM seems to fit my guns quite well (based on measuring an impact slug of the chamber/leade) I haven't had much luck keeping them from going through the targets sideways.

I traded a number of these shortened castings to a fellow to shoot in his Carcano and he reports excellent accuracy and stability with that particular gun. I've concluded there are better designs available for the Swedes, but you already knew that.

Gear

Hello Gear,

If I'm not mistaken didn't you just shave the one side of the mould...double cavity right?

You should talk to Larry as he's going to size the noses down so he can get the CM to fit his rifles chamber and not have the base of the bullet seated deep. Maybe you can try a few of those in your rifle...or have you already made a sizer to do that tried them?

Yes, Joe, I did just shave the one cavity and redrill the sprue plate pivot hole so I could swap the plate and cast either size, that was in case I encountered a gun that would actually chamber that large of a nose. 45 2.1 explained the problems with the later production mould having oversized dimensions, but I didn't realize that at the time. The moulds were too hard to get to ruin.

I did try to resize the noses before I cut the mould down, but the nose fit the leade so well as it was that I just sized them nose first in a .266 Lyman die only far enough to push the first band to .2665" and the second to .2680", which gives full contact between the bands and the throat while slightly engraving the nose. Can't get much better fit I thought, but who knows, I haven't learned how to make them shoot yet and i've tried lots of things. Maybe they're wadding up between the ogive and first band when being fired.

As for actually squeezing down the nose, I think if the boolit has to be modified that much after casting to make it shootable maybe the wise thing to do is try a different mould or diffrerent design.

Gear

quote:

Originally posted by Ian Harris:
Yes, Joe, I did just shave the one cavity and redrill the sprue plate pivot hole so I could swap the plate and cast either size, that was in case I encountered a gun that would actually chamber that large of a nose. 45 2.1 explained the problems with the later production mould having oversized dimensions, but I didn't realize that at the time. The moulds were too hard to get to ruin.

I did try to resize the noses before I cut the mould down, but the nose fit the leade so well as it was that I just sized them nose first in a .266 Lyman die only far enough to push the first band to .2665" and the second to .2680", which gives full contact between the bands and the throat while slightly engraving the nose. Can't get much better fit I thought, but who knows, I haven't learned how to make them shoot yet and i've tried lots of things. Maybe they're wadding up between the ogive and first band when being fired.

As for actually squeezing down the nose, I think if the boolit has to be modified that much after casting to make it shootable maybe the wise thing to do is try a different mould or diffrerent design.

Gear

Gear,

You are sure right if it takes that much trouble to try make that bullet shoot that you are better off with another mould for sure. You are very aware that the problem is that these newer moulds from LEE drop the bullet way too fat. Nobody that has the early moulds that does drop them the right size will part with them.

The only success I've had with sizing noses down along with some of the forward portion of the bullet is in my 6.5 Grendel shooting the original Kurtz and some other round nosed Lymans. The problem with that rifle is that the freebore is very very short, plus the AR doesn't have very much camming action. Other then the hassle to do that they shot pretty good. This was before I got the Saecon 140 grain bore rider with shoots much better and fits the rifle as though Saeco made them for it, which we know they didn't because that mould existed way before the 6.5 Grendel came along.

Maybe you can get some of the CM's cast from the early correct size mould. I'm sure if you posted that someone would jump in to give you some to try.

You may try BaBore's re-cut of the Lyman 266469. It's a longer heavier bullet that shoots well.

I emailed BABore last year about getting a mould cut with a Kurtz and his 26(8)469 in the same blocks, but my CM mould came in and I've spent an inordinate amount of time fooling with it instead. Now I have a few too many irons in the fire to pursue it. Hopefully I'll get back to the Swedes next year. Thanks for the tips.

Gear

quote:

Originally posted by Geargnasher:
I emailed BABore last year about getting a mould cut with a Kurtz and his 26(8)469 in the same blocks, but my CM mould came in and I've spent an inordinate amount of time fooling with it instead. Now I have a few too many irons in the fire to pursue it. Hopefully I'll get back to the Swedes next year. Thanks for the tips.

Gear

I see some like Boz and Bkbville talking about the CM not holding onto the rifling. This is the thinking that stops anyone from making it work, that is that it is totally wrong. That's not the problem at all. I've not only fired the CM, but other 6.5 bullets into my water tank bullet trap and not only is there no evidence of stripping, there are perfect groove size rifling markets on the bullet. They are correct in having to start the bullet gentle, but is as far as it goes. What's important, and why the accuracy isn't there, is getting that bullet started "straight" into the bore and rifling. Cushing that base on the bullet is important too. That's why using the buffer plays a huge role.

I didn't save or photograph those water tank bullets, but I may fill the tank again and do another string of tests.