Ken I did a good bit of experimenting with the Bf filler a couple yrs ago-- which duplicates the action of COW. Mine shot mostly in the 06 and some 30/30 plinker loadings. I finally wound up moly coating the cast bullets and then moly coating the Bf also-- and it worked out fine.

Be interested to hear how hard your cast here and what powder speeds you used. And how many rds could you fire before you had to clean?

I've also run experiments where I just seated a hard unlubed cast bullet and lubed the ogive-- firing these to 2600+ with <3 MOA accuracy for 12 rds. Probably the most trouble free high velocity combo I've used is a conventionally lubed hard cast being moly coated before lubing--no fillers using the slow numbers. Not a spec of leading even on the driving side land for >100 rds-- yet using my current lube formula.

I tried to find a link for the Bf threads in the archives with no luck.

Tim my solution to applying moly on cast was using whole grain rice and turning it slowly. 70 minutes and they were a lite grey using a 40 oz peanut butter container and say enough moly to make the rice look nice'n dark.

I have to run the 06 to 50% of capacity with Bf and max psi's-- the 30/30 to 70% of capacity for plinker loadings. Complete settling of the Bf is a must with mild compression. Should have mentioned earlier I chose the Bf because it was lighter than COW and over-compression does not appear to respond as negatively as COW or ground rice-- both of which will form a rock-like wall over-compressed and send the psi's HIGH. Yet I think the COW might be easier to meter and use measureing.


Methinks the moly coated fillers give the best shot to shot consistency for barrel condition, as in effect your blasting the lube condition on the bore out with ea shot. Your mileage might vary.

I can't prove this idea but I believe fillers accentuate base squareness at exit from the tube-- and thus accuracy. The filler of course has mass and the hot gases themselves escaping around the bullet heel at exit don't. Anything less than completely perpendicular didn't shooten as good for me. But again-- this is likely a mileage event too.

Fillers DO polish a bore. They DO wear a bore faster. Fillers are nice for polishing a bore which leads some too.

Questions for y'all who've done this extensively (or succesfully) -



If I'm going to get nit-picky-serious about accuracy (moving from penny-targets at 100 to asperin-targets at 100yards (don't have easy access to longer ranges) which caliber/iron would you recommend to start with cast?



(first 3 do 1/2MOA, haven't shot the 375 yet)

Savage and Remmington have Ultimate Sniper stocks.



.223 - Savage 110FP w/6.5-20x Simmons

7mm-08 - Ruger #3 Very Hevy BBL scope TBA

7.62Nato - Rem 40X-B SS w/6-18x Burris

375Win - Ruger #3 custom 26"bbl - 6-24x Balvar (pre-Unertal)



How concerned should I be about putting in fillers in necked cartriges? I have no problem with cotton/dacron/TP.



Moly lubricant - I have a 1 lb can of powdered MDS. What works for applying it?

Tim

My order of pick from your selection of rifles would be the 308 first, then the 7mm-08, not sure on the next two. For one thing the there are a mulitude number of moulds for 30 cal cast bullets and the 308 size case is a good size for cast shooting. The 7mm-08 is ditto the 308,except of course for the bullet diameter. Not as many mould choices for the 7mm either. I have a 7mm-08 shooting very good with cast but the rifle isn't anyways near "target style" as yours, nor the scope. It's a SAKO mannlicher carbine with a mini 3x9 Burris and I have it consistantly shooting 1/2 inch at 100 yards and that is without any of the benchrest load tricks. Just sort my bullets visually and load them with a kapok tuff. Ditto the same results with a CZ 550 30-06. Both of these, you see, are sporter rifles. You have a good test bed in the style of rifles you have, so the potential should be there.

Aladin...definition of mass..[n] the property of a body that causes it to have weight in a gravitational field, the gas exiting the muzzle definately has mass. Did you mean the bf filler is more a solid mass?

Joe

Aladin,



You can read about my experieces with COW loads in some detail in the CBA's 'The Fouling Shot', but the short version is that when I used a case full of COW, I also got substantially increased pressures, but that when I filed most of the case with a light Dacron and only used a slight amount of COW, pressures pretty much returned to normal, or nearly so.



It's a fact that the COW will solidify, but it's not an age related phenomonon - or at least not strictly age related. I was once doing some work with heavy COW fillers in VERY light loads in a 30-06, and got one load light enough that the rifle made no sound beyond the click of the fireing pin, though the bullet made a very solid 'thunk' on the backstop.



Rule one: Stop and investgate when something odd happens. The bore was still pressurized, and popped open when the bolt was lifted. I found a short column of COW stuck ~ 2/3 of the way down the bore. It was so solid that when I bounced a GI cleaning off of it, the rod rang like I'd bounced it off of an anvil. I finally had to drill the durn thing out. But I'd just put the load together a few minutes before fireing it, so age wasn't the cause, it was pressure - and not much of it either.



That said, I have used COW loads in high power loads in numerous moderately bottlenecked cases without trouble, and for that matter, with straight walled cases too. I haven't had ocassion to use it in very heavily bottlenecked cases like 22-250, but the 6.5x55 Swedish represents a pretty siginficant neck-down - and it works fine with COW. If someone is having trouble with a 30-30 or 30-06, they need to look for some other explanation.



And it doesn't seem to matter if the COW is from a freshly opened package, or has been setting in my loading room for a few months. So moisture pickup apparently has not been a factor for me - and since the combustion of the gunpowder liberates considerable moisture, I don't see that trace variations of adsorbed H2O is likely to make much difference.



The trick with COW loads is to use a little common sense and develop the load gradually. If you start with a light powder charge, and only a little COW (it doesn't take much), you're not likely to make a major error. Then use normal load development techniques like GRADUALLY increasing powder charges, etc. It's not hard: I've had a LOT of people tell me how well it works for them, using a wide variety of cases, calibers, and bores, so it doesn't seem to be some fluke. But I've had a few complaints too:



It seems like no big deal, but it's simply amazing how some people will take their favorite hot / high velocity load, and just fill the case with COW, compress it with a bullet and then scream about how their pressures went up, the cases bulged etc. I don't know just what they expected to result from reducing the case capacity and increasing the ejecta weight. Duhhh.



Let's see. You asked about alloys: I mostly use linotype or near linotype for HV rifle slugs, simply because it casts so well and does much to reduce the question of bullet quality and upset, but that's mostly from habit and a rather substantial inventory of linotype. I've also used wheelweights (as cast and quench hardened, depending on application: I don't use linotype for squirrel popping with my 30-06) One of the things that really surprised me with COW loads is that they seem much less sensitive to allow hardness that conventional lubricated GC bullets: My best guess is that the COW essentially forms a sabot cup at the base of the bullet and protects it from upset as well as gas erosion, but that's just a notion: I have no solid evidence for it.



I know that some folks have reported similar success with Grex and other granulated plastics, but my experience is strictly with COW.



COW loads DO have a remarkable cleaning effect on the bore: After fireing, the bore is typically bright and shiny, with only a trace of unconsumed powder granules here and there. However, I have never seen any evidence of abrasion or wear, and considering the relative softness of COW (even compressed) and steel, I'd frankly be astonished if it were even remotely possible. However, there is another caveat: I ruined a Nagant by letting it stand without cleaning and oiling for a few days in humid weather. When I got to it, the bore had a fine rust, and I'm sure that the squeeky clean / dry bore from the COW loads just left it without a trace of oil.



Speaking of oil / lubrication in the bore, I have repeatedly found that COW loads shoot better from a dry bore. Lubricated bullets (at least w/ beeswax / alox) have been much less consistent in my work, though others have found differently. Not sure why, just reporting facts.



Well, since this started out to be 'the short version', I suppose I've bored you long enough, but COW loads are one of my favorite soap boxes.



Regards,



kbmoly

Welcome to this forum, Ken. You may be new here, but you're sure not new to cast bullets. I'm glad you joined us.

I'd like to sort out the effects, using fillers, of:

lubrication (grooves vs. in the filler or just under the base),

accuracy (group size, variations in pressure, velocity),

effect of distortion or not on bullet with/with-out filler,

ability to accurately use gas-check style bullets without the check,

effects of varying hardness while using fillers - accuracy, leading, etc.


So, my gut-level feeling is not to use a dense filler in a bottle neck cartrige - yet you're using 30-06 successfully - 17 degree shoulder but lagre to small diameter. How tall a column of filler (in terms of diameters) before chamber pressures are raised to where they're discernably higher?

I'm going back to putting the Dacron fluff in my .45-70s with the medium load of WC680. Last evening I had a "squib" when I'd pointed the muzzle down before shooting. It made a mild pop. I blew the smoke out of the bore and peered through it, seeing that it was unobstructed, but I was unable to chamber another round due to unburned powder stuck in the chamber. Increasing the charge a bit and going to magnum primers had, I thought, stopped this, but it's back to Dacron for me. I really don't want to step up the charge level further as it defeats the purpose of these medium power loads (mainly to reduce recoil.)

Paul

I agree with you. I guess the main thing I don't like about fillers are they have more mass to push then say with kapok or dacron. I understand that there are some fillers out there now that are lighter in weight, some even use the buffer for shotshell loading. I may in the future try some of the newer fillers but for right now I'll stick with kapok and dacron.

Joe

"Aladin...definition of mass..[n] the property of a body that causes it to have weight in a gravitational field, the gas exiting the muzzle definately has mass. Did you mean the bf filler is more a solid mass?"

I have not used the BF as a filler, but I do have experience with the COW.

First off, I would not use COW in any bottle necked case. I have also quit using it in straight walled cases.
Now as to the why. I had loaded up some 45-70 cases with SR-4759 and then COW with the COW slightly compressed to keep it from blending with the powder. Circunstances made it necessary to break down a few as recoil was much stouter than before with the same loads. The COW had compacted into a solid mass that had to be scraped out with a screwdriver. This stuff was literally, like concrete. The loads were only about six months old. I have no idea why it solidified like it did, but if that had happened in a bottle necked case, I'd damn well not want to be the one shooting it. I'll stick to dacron from now on if I need a filler.
Paul B.

Tim, the 40XB might have a 14 twist barrel. Depends on whether it was made in the 70s, back in the heyday of Mike Walker. If so, that would be a special run of Douglas barrels just for Mike. ... felix

Hi Ricochet! I have read about that but never talked to anyone who had used grease before. Have you ever used it in full ower loads for '06 or 30/30? Just regular 'tube' grease? Hmmmm.... I wonder about getting some pill capsules and filling them with grease and laying them on the powder charge just under the bullet. The pressure of firing would surely spread the grease out but the capsule would save the powder. Sound KrAzzY?

Hi Ed! I have never rolled my first patch- well successfully anyway! Some say it is easy but I am all thumbs. I almost ordered a paper patch mold but chickened out. Another post talks about using masking tape! What a cool idea- if it works.

I really want a cast bullet something like an cannon shell. A thin groove riding section at the back and a long bore riding nose. A boattail should strengthen the base. Just how to keep it from leading? Thanks, Dale

Aladin,

There seems to have been a misunderstanding on my part, for which I must apologize. A recent friend mentioned that he thought you'd had some very good success with COW loads, and suggested that I look you up. I've had some success with them myself. I have essentially duplicated factory ammo for 7.62x54R, 30-06 and 6.5x55 Swedish using COW loads and unsized, unlubricated cast bullest, just as they drop from the mold - only cooler(BG). And that's chronographed, not guessed at velocities. Accuracy has been generally good too, at least for 'practical' purposes like deer hunting: I can hit fence posts at a couple of hundred yards with little trouble, and have fired some nice groups too, but not good enough to win any bench rest matches - but then I don't have bench rest guns either.

When I heard -mistakenly - that you'd had good luck with COW loads in long range matches, I thought I might learn something new.

Sorry for the confusion.

Regards,
kbmoly

Hi Everyone. My friend Greg had some puches made to cut round discs out of cardboard. The punches were .429 and .458 inside diameter. He had done some research in straight walled cases and thought that the cardboard discs protected the base and cleaned the bore. He had to go back out over-the-road since and hasn't had a place to hang his hat. Some day he will continue this experiment. He was going to see how thicknesses or layers changed things. Early tests were very promising, though. A local machine shop made both punches ( requires block of wood and hammer) for $30 or so.

Don't be offended at this because I mean no offense to anyone. I use this style because it is a favorite speech of mine.

"I have a dream! Someday we will cast bullets without grease grooves. Knowledge will progress and new designs will appear- both bullet and bore! I have a dream! Sizers will sit and gather dust! You will lube 1000 bullets in 20 seconds and they will be ready to shoot immediately. I have a deam! New alloys will be discovered and the secrets hidden for so long will be found! I have a dream! Cast bullets, because they are more uniform than jacketed ones, will be the desire of all benchresters. I have a dream! Leading will be a thing of the past, performance will exceed jacketed and we all will sit on our collect duffs and smile!"

Really , has anyone done anything with bullets without grease grooves? 90% of imperfections are in this area. Think how the bullets would fall out of the mold. Think how perfect they would cast! The statement above of shooting cast bullets with only lube on the nose. We are on the way, maybe.

There is enough knowledge, intelligence , and experience here to progress to my dream. Anyone else want to go for it? Dale

This afternoon I shot some bullets with no grease grooves, lubed on the nose. They were old-style conicals cast of wheelweight metal from the decorative brass mould in the case with my Walker replica, lubed with a glob of wheel bearing grease filling the chamber mouth over the bullet nose, shot over 45 grains of Goex FFFg. They shot fine that way. (As did cast pure lead .445" balls over 60 grains of FFFg.)

Those bullets are here already, they have been around for a long time. Paper patched cartridge bullets work very well with no leading. They work really well, they shot most of the buffalo. Your dream may have come true!

>Had you also fired corrosive military ammo through it?

Hey, neat thought, and I almost went for it, because I have shot up some junk ammo for the cases. But no go: I always clean cases well, so any salts previously present wouldn't have been ther when they were loaded with COW loads. Besides, I'm about 99.99% sure I was using Norma cases at the time.

Wait a minute! If I HAD fired some corrosives, there may have been some residue left in the bore ... Man, I just dunno. That was a long time ago.

kbmoly

Thanks Junior! A warm, friendly reception is always nice. (I've also some experience with warm UNfriendly receptions, but we won't go there.) (BG)

kbmoly

Hi Ricochet,

You asked
>How tall a column of filler (in terms of diameters) before chamber pressures are raised to where they're discernably higher?

I can't tell you, because I never approached my loads from that perspective. My load development INCLUDED COW effects, it did not add them to an existing load.

FWIW, if I were to begin loading for a strange bottlenecked round, and wanted to use COW filers, the first thing I'd do is loacate some reliable standard loading data for it using slow powders that approached factory equivalents. Then I'd back off that powder charge about 50% (I happen to be very fond of my eyes) and fill the remainder of the case with a light wad of dacron up into the shoulder area, or perhaps to the very bottom of the neck. (There's some fudge factor here, because neck volume can vary so much from one round to another.) Then I'd scoop the neck and shoulder full of COW (not even weighed) to the case mouth and seat a sized (not lubricated) slug on it. This would be fired to confirm the (expected) general low pressure and freedom from leading.

If all looked well, I'd load up several and fire them for group, and measure the COW now, just for the record. Then I'd slowly increase the powder charge and look for both sweet spots and problems. If leading began to occur (I'd be surprised) before any notable pressure signs, I'd drop back on the load a bit and increase the COW VERY slightly. Otherwise, it's a pretty conventional load developemnt process of trying variations like unsized, sized, what diameter, different bullets and the like.

I know that isn't what you wanted, but it's how I went about my own loads. Good luck. You have my e-mail if you want anything more specific.

kbmoly