Guys...take a look at the 4 fired empty shells in the picture. The round is a 7.65 Argentine. The load was the 311299 over 30 grs of H4895 no wad. I had forgot I didn't put a wad in these and on the first couple of shot was rewarded with a blow of gas back in my face. I wear shooting glasses so no problem. But those first shots were fired without tilting the muzzle of the barrel up then resting it slowing on the benchrest and firing. Those are the two very blackened shell on the left. The ones on the right were tilted up and you can see the big difference. Just wanted to show you some things that can happen when you use a small amount of powder and don't position it or use a wad.

Joe

Thanks for posting that. What are good items for wads or filler ?, I heard quick grits, cormeal,or wads. Any suggestions ?. Right now I am reloading and casting for 7.62X54R and need to top off the cases somehow, they are half full. I been tilting the gun up til now.

Bulletman...I use either a tuff of dacron or kapok. Dacron is a white synthetic material used in batting for like quilts. You buy it at sewing and cloth store. Kapok is a natural plant fiber that was used in lifejackets at one time. It's still available from some places. Some of the other forum members know where to buy kapok. I don't like using a filler like cream of wheat or such.

Joe

Thanks Joe, that dacron, just fill in a light amount ? or kinda pack it softly ?

Bulletman...NRA Cast Bullit book had alot of articles in it about dacron and kapok. They said pinch of some and that it shouldn't weigh more then 1/10 of a grain. Actually a piece of that weight is larger then you think. Anyways you push it gentley down ontop the powder charge. Don't stuff the whole empty space. The idea is to keep the powder charge in the back of the casing without having to tilt your barrel. You know any type of wad or filler raises your pressures some so if you're shooting a top end load, which I wouldn't assume you are with cast, you may have to adjust your powder charge. The wad helps all the way around, loads seem to be more consistant in extreme spread, standard deviation, and velocity. I think they are more accurate too.

Joe

Does this Dacron ever melt in the case or bore? I have never heard this addressed and, obviously, I've never tried it either and just don't know.

Thanks for letting me ask such a "dumb" question.

I setup 5 rounds with some type of polly fill for quilts and such, just enough to hold the powder down and not fill the case, leaving a gap between it and the bullet, I lowered my powder a grain, will test tomorow.

I have to disagree with leaving ANY airspace in the case.

I've fired many thousands of rounds using dacron, but I use a tuft big enough to fill the space above the powder WITHOUT any substantial degree of compression. I push this tuft into the case with a blunt instrument which fits comfortably into the case neck, like a suitable-size allen key.

As soon as I feel my "pusher" grinch against the powder, I remove the instrument from the case and then gently tuck the rest of the dacron (which is still outside the case) into the caseneck where I leave it high enough that the bullet will finish pushing the filler into the case. NO airspace remains, and the powder is nicely located where it belongs, but the filler is NOT tamped or compacted. A tuft removed from the case after this installation is a nice symmetrical cylinder, with enough density to keep the powder confined where I want it.

Extensive research on the subject of fillers indicates that AIRSPACE in the case can produce serious troubles, and so can wads of any desription placed over the powder under that airspace, so it seems to me that a fairly loose filler accomplishes two things. It both positions the charge in the proper location, AND fills the remaining space without adding any mass to speak of.

Comparative tests in my own guns show that pressures usually are very slightly elevated using dacron, compared to identical loads without dacron. It also is generally true (but not always) that the dacron loads are somewhat more consistent in extreme spread and standard deviation. Accuracy is a tougher question....often better with dacron, sometimes not.

I only use granular fillers like cornmeal, etc. for fireforming cases WITHOUT bullets, finding they do a nice job in that role.

This is a long-running discussion among us cast-boolit nuts, but my shooting with dacron is also a long-running show which has been entirely free of problems. I adopted my way of doing it after a lot of study, and so far it's working great in cases from the 6.5x54 Mannlicher to the .50-2.5 Sharps'.

No flames intended, naturally.....!

Regards from BruceB (aka Bren Mk1)

Thanks for that reply, I was aware about space, I figured the fill being so light and airy it wouldnt matter, but I am also finding more info tonite before I shoot these loads.

Well these pictures are interesting. I use Kapok filler myself as I want someting that will not melt. It may burn but it doesen't melt. But here is my question. It buggs me all the time. If you don't use a filler what difference does it make where the powder lies. if you raise the muzzle all you do is spray the powder forward with the primer jet. if the powder is forward the jet reaches it just as well. If a primer can move a bullet forward alone, it seems logical that it's force will push any light load forward on ignition no mater where the powder lies. The other thing that gets me is this. Even if the powder ignites differently depending on it's position in the cart at ignition. The pressure build up to overcome bullet inertia has to be the same just to break the neck tension and start discharge. Why would that pressue not be enough to seal the brass to the chamber? I can see the neck being smoked but not past the shoulder. My gut tells me there is more going on here than just filler and position. Headspace? JB

JB Mauser, I agree with you that those cases look funny. I have used 30-35 grs of IMR 4895 under the RCBS 180 gr. bullet as my standard cast boolit load for years. Both with dacron with the same techique as Bruce Bs, and without any filler at all. I never get that severe blackening of the case with any of these loads. Your guess of headspace is logical. I am also wondering if Hodgdon's 4895 is enough differant that IMR's, to cause this. I have never experienced blowback of gas as described either. If I did I would certainly look for causes right now.

Regards from duke.

Not sure where i read it, But I did read in a reloading book that the 4895's are very different in some respect, and that cases half or less than half full do not ignite as evenly as desired for accuracy. I am just getting into reloading and casting and am learning much fast,(thanks to folks like you) the more I think about it, I may not shoot these loads till I can triple check on the space thing inside the case.I did manage to get some cases looking like the pic, I think it was from a light load when I did it.

[ 09-07-2003, 07:11: Message edited by: Bulletman ]

JB Mauser...I gaurantee you this rifle doesn't have excessive headspace. For one thing when shooting cast boolits I seat the cast boolit to a depth that lets the bullet to be slightly engraved by the rifling. That alone would solve any little amount of excessive headspace there might be which in this case there isn't. I also shoot full power jacketed bullets out of this rifle. Another thing I didn't mention was that those shells that are blackened that I didn't tilt the rifle back on also had a substantialy less amount of recoil and blast. The ones that were tilted back had more recoil and blast. If powder is up against the flashhole that portion gets ignited first and I bet it also absorbs the flame of the primer. Now when the powder is laying horizon I believe the primer ignites much more power initially then if it is up against the flashhole. I think there is a difference then in the pressure curve.

Bruce...I've been shooting cast with over the powder tuffs of kapok for more years then I care to admitt and I never had one iota of problems, not rings in my bore or chamber, no casing problems. Standard deviation and extreme spread on my chrono was very consistant with my method. I believe the tuff are so small and porous that they get consumed immediately. So I have to disagree with you on this one. I will agree with you with any other harder wad such as cardboard being loaded over the powder leaving an airspace.

Someone asked does Dacron leave anything. Yes, when it's used in large amounts such as Bruce says in totally filling the airspace. It leaves little balls of burnt Dacron which basically is kind of like plastic. I think if I were to fill the airspace totally I'm much prefer kapok as it either burns totally or the unburnt portion gets blown out of the barrel in shreds. I tried that as test by filing the airspace totally with kapok and I could see it blown out of the muzzle in a very fine unburnt mist of fuzz. With a large case such as a 30-06 and a small charge of powder say like 28-30 grs of suplus 844 (which is very similar to H 335) I'm not about to fill the airspace with that much Dacron. That's alot of dacron even if it is fluffy. You weigh that tuff and I'll gaurantee you it weighs more then 1/10 of a grain.

Joe

.........I've heard it said, and seen it written that the 4895 speed powder is the slowest 'they'd' (the suthors/sayers) recommend in reduced charges. I will hazard this means loose in the cartridge case.

Fillers/wads,

Filler: To me, a filler is something that "Fills" any airspace in the case between bullet and powder. Usually a solid in the true sense of the word. Ie, Grex or it's alternative granulated plastic, or cereal grian mixes. Used to fill 100% of the space.

Wads: Any of the spun or 'fluff' types. Dacron, Kapok, milkweed fiber, cotton, or toilet paper. Used essentially to hold the powder back against the flash hole.

I will not attempt to suggest I know what the environment is like in the cartridge case at primer ignition. Yet I can imagine that it is a fairly violent environment. I've seen pressure tests of confined primers set off and pressures generated are several thousand pounds and the primer's reaction is violent.

So what will a bit of Dacron do? It can do nothing more than keep the powder consistantly against the flash hole until ignition. After that it might as well not be there so far as I'm concerned. And to my way of thinking that's ALL it does. Provides consistant powder position for each shot. Consistancy is what counts.

Dave Scovill of "Handloader" magazine did a test (as a minor point of powder position) in trying to determine a good powder in the 45 Colt case. A large volumn for a pistol case. In EVERY loading, velocities were much reduced with the powder against the bullet base. Exactly the opposite with the powder positioned to the rear of the case. In addition, rearward placement produced the tightest stats.

In only a couple instances have I really tested this myself, to the one result of seeing what exactly the difference was. One was the 38-55 with 16.0 grs of 2400. One was the 7.65x54 Mauser with the Lyman 314299 and 12.0grs of SR7625, and the final was in the 223 with tiny charges of Bullseye. The 2400 loads in the 38-55 had a Dacron wad, the others had their muzzle tipped up. A vast improvement with the powder back, in all 3 instances.

In the .223 (M112 Savage, 26" bbl) with some loads the difference was having the bullet lodge in the barrel, or have it depart at 4-500 fps.

I have to beg leave to take exception to BruceB's suggestion of his use of Dacron as filling 100% of the airspace between the powder and bullet. In this instance, the Dacron may touch both the powder and bullet base, but in no way does it "Fill" this area.

The finely spun polyester fiber actually only fills a small portion of the area, and the volumn still contains more airspace than the Dacron. By way of example, you have a box and toss in some shredded newsprint packing to 'fill' it to the brim. Is it full? In one sense it is. Actually by pressing it down you find you have probably 80% or more of the original volumn remaining.

Once on the Shooters BB we were having this discussion. Mainly it delt with chamber/bore ringing and plastic fouling. One poster said it was a problem. I've never been able to identify it, and if I have the problem I'm not aware of it. If I'm not aware of it, then I don't have a problem :-). Ammohead came up with "Jellatinous Mass" as a (I think, sarcastic) description and it cracked us up. Yet it gave me an idea.

I took a 45-70 case and put in 30.0grs of H4198 and enough Dacron under some mild tamping to 'fill' the case. I removed the Dacron and then started to melt it with my Zippo. At one point I had to substitute a piece of coathanger to hold it while I continued to try and melt it without setting it on fire. I ended up with a solid lump rendered down to a bit larger than a pea. A small percentage of the actual area it was originally in. I should have weighed it before and after but didn't. I don't hink I lost much to the air:-).

For a (more) true filler I like Grex. Actually Super Sam, as Grex isn't available on the market any longer. I use this when case volumns are about 60% or more, powder charge. Especially with the slower powders. Mostly surplus WC846, 4895 or WC852. Most recently I used it in the 8x57 with WC852 in testing my Lee custom 240gr cast bullet.

I started with an extrapolated charge to start and my goal was 2300 fps from a 24" bbl. I felt that with my previous experiences using WC852, that it would get me there. And so it did!With powder charges containing a SS filler compressed by the bullet, I got excellent statistics along the way and very good accuracy overall.

So why did I use SS instead of Dacron in this loading? Well, WC852 is a fairly heavily detered ball powder so I wanted something more substantial to fill the airspace in the case. Somehting that was going to do more than just orient the powder against the primer until ignition. I needed something to help build pressure for more complete combustion and that would better withstand the rigors of recoil. Something I anticipated from what I wanted to attain <VBG>.

I will readily admit that even this finely ground poly still contained airspace, but I think not too much. In any event it did a fine job. As to it's behavior, certainlyit compresses, yet remaines fluid in it's ability to extrude from the body of the case and up through the neck. I'm not aware of any 'melting' or plastic fouling.

One way I have of thinking this is some artifacts left behind. Like some BPCR shooters have found, there is sometimes a lead ring extracted with the case. This is the lead bullet upsetting into the chambernck area ahead of the caseneck. It's sheared from the bullet. In my case, I got some white plastic rings, HA! These were sometimes stuck to the mouth of the case.

While they'd usually be whole, sometimes they'd break. They weren't burned or fused solid. They were compressed, yet easily crumbled apart. Obviously like the soft lead bullet becoming somewhat fluid or plastic in it's expansion, so did the ground poly end up compressed in the chambeneck area ahead of the casemouth.

Whether a Dacron wad, SS or a ceral filler, it needs to be used form the beginning of any load development and not as an afterthought halfway through. They DO raise pressures to some extent and this should be mindfully looked after.

Finally I'm not trying to convert anyone to their use. If you feel there is a danger of barrel or chamber ringing, then by no means should you use it. I don't use it for any of the fast pistol/shotgun powders. They're so easy to ignite that tipping the barrel suffices just fine. And adding these things does add another complication to the loading process.

.........Buckshot

Gents;

It's apparent that I have failed to describe my use of dacron adequately.

I do NOT "fill" the airspace (or what would have been airspace) with dacron. I said that I use a tuft just large enough to take up the space between bullet-base and powder, and that I use that tuft WITHOUT COMPRESSION to any large degree...i.e.: NOT compacted.

There is a great deal of "air" left within the dacron tuft inside the case, and the dacron ONLY serves to keep the powder against the primer.

In the huge case of the .416 Rigby, the tufts used run well under 1.0 grain....and I do NOT weigh them, going strictly by eyeball which works fine for me. In good loads, chrono variations are often down into single digits.

Firing from inside my Schuetzenwagen, there's often a breeze in my face and little dacron fibers are wafting around quite frequently. I have never seen anything resembling a melted remnant of dacron either airborne or in the barrel of the rifles, or in the cases. Dacron subjected to a primer explosion in a powderless round (yeah, I've done it...haven't you?), which does not allow the escape of the dacron, the heat, or the pressure, WILL show signs of melting, but not so with a normal cartridge.

So, to re-cap: NO compression beyond what's needed to get the LOOSE tuft into the case! The tuft is sized to be approximately the size of the available space inside the case, and installed LOOSELY. It does conform to the case's interior shape, of course.

Regards from BruceB (aka Bren Mk1)

Thanks Starmetal, BruceB, Buckshot, et al,

Exactly what I wanted to know. I've never used "fillers" of any kind before. And I really don't want to learn by ringing a chamber or barrel, or having to scrub some burnt plastic out of bore and/or brass.

Regards,

I have no science to back up this theory of mine but here goes. I think one should use a filler that will burn but not melt. Kapok, Cotton and Toilet Paper being the choices. I think that if a reduced load with a bullet that wants to stay put in the neck wether held by neck tension or it is engraved on the lands. I don't want any melted liquid trying to vacate the case before the bullet. The way I see it is if the dacron does melt because of Time in the fire and the heat of the combustion that any liquid would or could offer tremensous hydrolic pressure if it tries to exit around the bullet and not remain behind it. If I use someting that does not melt. it has to evacurate the case after the bullet no matter what, as a puff of fluff or burnt embers or a bit of both. The bullet is the last thing to move in the entire process it would seem logical that a light liquid or partial liquid part fluff would be looking to get out first. Does this make sense to any of you? JB

JBMauser....No...simply put..it doesn't make sense to me. First the fillers we are talking about here, mainly Dacron and Kapok, are very porous. Second it doesn't take alot of pressure to move a cast boolit out of the casing. A primer alone in most instances will do it. Okay....so the powder burns and long before the filler gets burned there are gases already and these gases slip right through the fillers and start pushing on the boolit.

I don't know what Buckshot (Whitworth) is doing to get that ring of plastic around his case mouth but I haven't seen anything in my bore as of yet with the Dacron except powder carbon. With Kapok I never saw a thing either.

As far as for the ringing of the bore I'd say it would almost have to have an obstruction ahead of the boolit. I personally no of anyone that uses reduced cast loads with a filler and got a ringed chamber.

If you've been following this sort of subject, that is cast loads with a filler, you can almost ascertain that the filler maked the load more consistant and accurate.

Joe

Starmetal, I had the same results with new Norma 7.7 Jap. What a mess to get clean. Load was 16.0 2400 and Ly 314299. All is fine now that they are fire formed and using a tad bit more pressure and a different powder. sundog

Yes Starmetal, I agree with your last statement. My cast loads have the least variation in FPS and they group the best. I don't agree about the cast bullet movement point. a 200 gr. cast bullet and a 200gr. jacketed bullet have the same inertia. There may be a difference in neck tension but if the same, the energy to get them both moving is the same. The resistance when it hits the bore is no doubt greater with a jacketed bullet. As for the porous nature of the filler materials. I contend that the material is flattened in an instant by the yet to be burned column of powder that has been jet thrust forward by the primer burst. At the moment just before the bullet overcomes inertia and starts to move the pressure inside the cartridge is equal in all directions out from the center. The case balloons to fill the chamber and the weakest point starts to give way just as inertia is overtaken. Does the neck expand before or after the bullet starts to move? If before or at the same time why would a light material not try to push it's way past the obstruction (the bullet). I don't think that the entire cartridge can expand to fill the chamber and seal itself at the shoulder and not to open at the neck as well. Even if the neck opens as the bullet slides out and the brass expands in a wave like action as the bullet moves out and the pressure expands the brass behind it. you still have the to deal with. From all I have read, ringed chambers occur ahead of the case neck not at the neck. My point is that a liquid in the cartridge or the barrel behind the bullet is not "a good thing" as Martha would say. JB

JBMauser...I don't know for sure the whole scientific happenings going on inside that cartridge and chamber but I can assure you there isn't any mass of liquid from the Dacron going down the bore. For one there isn't that much Dacron being used. When Dacron is burned it shrinks to a very very small amount of the original material size. I suggest that since you have reservations about using Dacron to use Kapok.
I like Kapok myself better. As soon as I find another lot of it I will go back to using it.

Joe

I have had similar experiences with heavy smoking of cases in two instances. The first was an old 1893 Marlin in .38-55. I bought Winchester factory loads (very light with a .375" bullet) and they smoke the cases just like your pictures. There was just not enough pressure to expand to seal the chamber. Turned out that the bore slugged about .380". I started loading with cast bullets at .379" and that solved the problem.

The second was some recent testing with an 1886 Winchester in .40-82. Light loads in IMR 3031 would not properly ignite unless I tilted the muzzle up to seat the powder at the base of the case. Not doing so would pop the bullet into the rifling before the charge fully ignited...smoking the cases just like yours. Going to a slightly larger diameter bullet and more powder solved the problem. Now, it shoots 1-1/4" groups a 50 yds. consistently.

Terry

........BruceB, must be at work, eh? The reason I posted what I did was because you said:

"I have to disagree with leaving ANY airspace in the case."

Followed by:

".........but I use a tuft big enough to fill the space above the powder WITHOUT any substantial degree of compression."

Hense, my remark:

" In this instance, the Dacron may touch both the powder and bullet base, but in no way does it "Fill" this area. "

Followed by:

" The finely spun polyester fiber actually only "fills" a small portion of the area, and the volumn still contains more airspace than the Dacron. "

When I use Dacron I use a fluffy piece about the size of a large marble for say, a 30-06 diameter case. It's stuck in the caseneck and pushed down atop the charge in one motion with the dowel then removed.

I believe I see what you mean now, in that the bulk is against the powder, yet there is also fluff Dacron above it, kind of "in (but not filling) that airspace", right?

What it boils down to is we just use differing amounts of Dacron for our loads :-). I remember the Winnemucca '02 Shoot when Ammohead was spotting for me while getting sight settings for the long range match. In the 45-90 Sharps I had a bit more Dacron than usual over the powder. I figured it'd be good to withstand the rigors of the trip. Turned out to be a good idea I guess with that 60 miles of dirt road across part of the Sheldon Antelope preserve :-). That started out as a good idea, anyway <VBG>.

No only the Dacron but the bullets were paper patched and had card wads under'em. Everytime I'd shoot he'd get a faceload of trash, heh, heh! Where IS Ammohead, anyway?

.........Buckshot

The only loads I've used Dacron filler in are 45-70s with a #457122HP bullet (about 340 grains in wheelweights) over surplus WC680 in the 35 grain range. I pulled off a big enough wad to fill the case about to the mouth, pushed it down with the eraser end of a pencil and seated the bullet, so the wad was lightly compressed. Crimped the bullet in tightly. Without the wad, this load is very inconsistent and will give frequent subsonic "bloopers." With the wad it shoots well enough, the muzzle velocity averaging something like 1480 FPS in my 22" Marlin 1895 Microgroove. In this load, the Dacron does not melt at all. It blows out the muzzle and floats all around like gray thistledown. Gets in your face, on your clothes, and on everything. Attracts attention at the range. Not necessarily of the favorable sort.

I think this load is on the light side and might work better if boosted up a bit, but anyone working with this powder in this cartridge is on their own. I haven't seen any published data.

I use 8gns of Dacron with 34gns of IMR3031 in 43Mauser and it works flawlessly. The Dacron goes downrange about 5 yds as a large tuft of grey fuzz, but it stays intact in one mass, not pulverized into tiny pieces. No burning, no melting, no plastic in the rifle. S/F...ken M

JB Mauser, I recently saw a picture of balls of dacron picked up down range. I believe it was in Handloader. The tufts still looked like fluff except for being a little brown. I have never found any plastic in my bores using dacron.