Are gas checks needed for these two calibers to avoid the leading, what do others use ??

In my Marlin 45/70 I was thinking of using a bullet in the 400 gr-450 gr vicinity, going for a little more weight and hence lower speeds should also help with the leading issue if there is one.

Regards PC.

[ 02-09-2003, 03:22: Message edited by: PC ]

PC
If you are casting your own bullets you can tinker with alloys,lubes and diameters to come with the proper combination to eliminate leading in plain base cast bullets, in your firearm.
I'm thinking that it would be a very lucky happenstance if you were to find a commercial plain base bullet with the proper combination, that worked in your firearms.
Jim

PC your first consideration is bore to bullet fit. Do you know the groove dia of those two guns? The Marlin's tend to run large and I normally like to start around 2 thou over groove if they'll chamber safely. If the 44 is a pistol-- fitting to the largest throat dia is your goal.

Leading limits per speed are a gun to gun variation-- which goes to fit, hardness, lube and bore condition. I've made 1600+ with a 45/70 PB Lee 405's at 411 gr otta aged ww alloy.

Leading only really is an issue as to accuracy. Often a little leading isn't gonna hurt anything.

The following is an artical that may appear in The Cast Bullet Association journal The Fouling Shot. Or, maybe not.

Anyway, since I wrote it you may preview it here and (at your own choice) use the ideas and procedures described.

Good afternoon,
Forrest

Shooting the Inverted Gas Check
By Forrest Asmus

This past shooting season has been an enjoyable one for me. Our editor has encouraged me to write about the upside-down gas check idea which I have tried in my buffalo rifle with interesting and encouraging results.

My rifle of choice this summer has been a Falling Block Works “J” action barreled up in 44/63 Ballard. I like this designation better than the better known 444 Marlin since I shoot mainly in the “traditional” matches but it is in fact the 444 chambered on a 16 twist barrel.

In the process of load development I settled on a custom made, lathe bored 460 grain Mos bullet, 19 grains SR 4759, � sheet T/P and an unsized, inverted, Hornady gas check as “standard”.

The inverted gas check idea came from CBA member and my correspondent Mustafa Curtess. In one letter Mustafa told me how he had been trying the inverted gas checks (IGC) in his 45/70 with good results. I loaded some up in the 44/63 and tried them out too. My results were very good and I continued to shoot this combination right along even though Mustafa later indicated that his results had not proven consistent and he was putting the idea on hold. I wondered what had gone wrong with his procedures and kept on using them in my shooting. I was having excellent results with the upside-down cups.

Since this is a rather unusual utilization of a gas check I'll explain how I put them to use: The 44/63 case, being a straight sided design, allows me to seat the unsized IGC under the bullet without running the risk of a check dropping off, as might be possible in a bottle necked case. I start each check into the case about 0.060” by using a backed-off case expander punch. The IGC is then forced down as the bullet is seated on top of it, slightly compressing the column of powder and T/P. The procedure prevents the check from moving away from the base of the bullet during handling and transport. This tight stacking of components is very important in my view because if the check were to move away from the bullet base it would then become a projectile inside the case upon firing. When it hit the base of a stationary bullet pressures would instantaneously rise, exceed the strength of the barrel steel and ring the chamber. I caution any member who contemplates trying this loading method to use the utmost caution!


From my point of view the IGC serves three purposes: It does seal the hot powder gases just as well as a normally seated check and certainly better than a card wad does. During firing the check also scrapes the bore, removing any lead wash which might otherwise accumulate during the firing of plain base bullets. Then, I believe that the unsized check, being forced into the case ahead of the soft lead bullet, acts like an expander punch, opening the case just a bit more and reducing the amount of bullet deformation I have seen on bullet bodies which were forced into undersize cases. (My cases are only partially sized, but excess case neck tension is something we all know should be controlled to a bare minimum.)

I have used this load for shooting matches and for everyday sessions at our range here in Wyoming. Excellent consistent results have been my experience. In loading the IGC in my 45/70 I have found that any of the loads where I formerly used a 0.050 card wad under the bullet accept the use of a IGC without changing the load’s former dependability at all and improving accuracy as noted above. The advantages of not having to be concerned about lead fouling are considerable, both because it no longer happens, and because worry itself is eliminated. In all cases, accuracy is improved.

I shoot plain base, heat treated cast bullets from my 45-70 all the time without leading. If I get them up to around 2000fps you will start to see a little leading other than that I don't worry about it.

Pumpkinheaver,

How do you do that?

Good afternoon,
Forrest