Gentlemen,

I noticed that Lee doesn't make a non gas-checked 30 caliber bullet presently. Is there any issue with shooting a bullet made for a GC and leaving the check off? I am looking for something for a 30-30 to teach my sons to shoot centerfire with.

I never got a GC design to shoot halfway decent without a GC. I use a Lyman 130 PB intended for the M1 Carbine for such stuff.

Lee's 311-100-2R would likely do for 50 yard offhand training. It's listed among the pistol moulds.

The only issue is lousy accuracy and I got leading after about 10 rounds in my marlin 336. You'll have to keep the velocities down lower than with the check...Gary D.

I'd second Leftoverdj's suggestion on the Lyman 311410 (saw one on ebay recently) and the Lee 311-100-2R for wheel weight alloy under 1500fps. For a lite "gallery" load: a single 0 Buck (0.32") sized down or consider the Lee round ball mold in .308 (single) or .311 (double); at about 45 - 48 grains/pellet over 3-5 grains of any fast powder should get you 800-900 fps. By the way, what do your sons weigh?
cukrus

[ 12-06-2003, 02:18: Message edited by: cukrus ]

without appearing too crass...while the hell do folks always want to delete a gascheck? The cost is minimal, the reurn on the investment far outweighs what they cost...which is next to nothing. If you're going to size the bullet anyway, adding a check is too simple to complain the extra 'step'. Spring for a box of checks and use them and enjoy the benefits.

grumble,

Well you know grumble, I made a statement on the old shooters board about the gases melting the base of the bullet and I got jumped on from all over. Alot of shooters said they recoverd bullets and they showed no gas melting what-so-ever. Now we all did agree that there can be gas cutting up the sides of the bullet. Another interesting thing was brought up about the FMJ condoms that don't have the full jacket on the base of the bullet. Why doesn't the gas melt it if does indeed melt the base of a cast bullet. Something to ponder in your quest for shooting unchecked gascheck style cast bullets.

Joe

I really don't want to go back into that briarpatch, Joe. What melts at what temperature after how long, is an "angels on the head of a pin" discussion unless someone can come up with some real facts.

That unchecked GC boolits cause leading is emperical. The "why" is conjecture.

"Why doesn't the gas melt it if does indeed melt the base of a cast bullet. Something to ponder in your quest for shooting unchecked gascheck style cast bullets.

Joe"

Methinks you've mis-takenly mistated what you meant to say...

Methinks you meant to say why do the sides of the bullet show leading in the barrel sans a check-- right?

Simple. Go to a garage and find an air compressor with a nozzle shooten a tight pattern. Make sure that reservior psi is 150 lbs/inch. Now take that nozzle and allow that stream to get close to your finger/hander whatever. It's not comfortable. Then consider a stream of water at high velocity is used to cut steel et al. The gas cutting on the bullet sides is of the same effect... very high pressure HOT combustion gases eroding that soft [relatively] lead alloy and depositing alloy wherever they find an avenue of escape. Not actually melting it, rather eroding and it following the gas stream forward being deposited IN the bore. Now a GAS CHECK is made of a material similar in to a bullet jacket for strength, which prevents the flow of gas forward once that disk is fully formed to the walls of the throating/leade or rifling-- whichever is the dia of that check. The lube being blown FORWARD is the first form of gas seal before the check contacts for a seal. Hence.. Gas check.

Leading actually is just ironing on those bits of lead blown off the bullet... when gas cut. Leading does take other forms too.

aladin

If you're looking at the ass end of a jacketed bullet, the kind that is not total jacketed all the ways around, you notice that the center portion of it is exposed lead. So what I'm say is if powder gases melts, erodes, whatever, they apparently don't do it to the center, or not as much. I know it would be extremely hard to find lead in the bore shooting the open back end type of full jacketed because the next bullet shot is going push that minute amount of lead out if there is indeed any. Have you noticed on recovered gas-checked cast bullets that aren't totally destroyed that the gas-check is cupped? Like the peak of the gas pressure is centered, pushing harder on the center of the bullet. I know sometimes this is caused by a gas-check being swaged down in the bore. I'm sure you you've notice when using a push through type sizer and sizing a bullet down alot it makes the gas-check convex. I get this alot when sizing .338's down to .330 for my Steyr 8x56R.

Gas goes towards the center of the boolit when the boolit is moving "fast" enough. Just like the hole in the water going down the drain. It's what happens at the end of the pressure stream, like at the muzzle, is where the real accuracy goes nuts. Also, that gas cutting at boolit startup is what leads up the barrel big time and distorts following boolits, making the exit forces that much wilder. ... felix

fellows, I can only relate what happened to me. I had a TC Contender in 30-30 and it would shoot close to 1/2" groups at 100 yds. I even have a nickel with a hole in it from that distance. I used a lyman mold but don't remember the no. Anyway, I ran out of gas checks so I loaded some without them. Couldn't hit a thing so I moved in to 50 yds and put up a big target. Every boolit went through the paper sideways. Ordered gas checks and never tried bare boolits again. Not worth the trouble and gas checks are cheap.

I do believe Veral stated that with low velocities, you may get by with using a filler in the case to protect the bullet base.

And there Jumptrap and Grumble go again, beatin' up on the Tar baby!

The only GC bullet I ever shot without the GC was an RCBS .45-400 in an early (1973)Marlin 1895. The reason wasn't economy, but sheer ignorance! It grouped under 3" at 100 with 1200 fps loads of 2400. Later, I figured out that my mould was a GC design and using the GC improved accuracy. So I guess some GC bullets can shoot OK without them. curmudgeon

I have nothing against plain based bullets and sized to fit the throat, they shoot perfectly well well within their velocity limitations. The reason they shoot at all is the flat, full diameter base they have. A GC design obviously doesn't possess this and like a blind hog that ocassionally finds an acorn, sometimes a GC bullet does shoot sans the check.....but most often they don't.

I think that, if, a shooter desires to not use a GC, then use a plain base design. If you own but one mould and it is a GC design and you have no GC's, well, take your chances and hope for the best. But, to just skimp on buying checks is a false economy. I also feel that Veral is on to something when he states that the check acts as driving band by getting a firmer grip on the rifling.

Now as for this blow-by business and melted bullet bases....I er, uh, well I'm non-commital on any of the proffered theories and will let it go at that...that damned briar patch hurts too much and I just ain't game for being dragged through it again, to ultimately reach the same conclusion.....that nobody knows for sure what happens..beyond the fact that something DOES.

I will digress this far; IF the bullet is made fat enough to plug the throat, it's pretty damned impossible for gas to get past it and if the gas is sealed off, about the only thing left to cause leading is either lube failure or the strength of the alloy to resist friction.