Dear Learned & Experienced CB Colleagues-

I am encountering a problem the likes of which I have not experienced before, and for which, I am not sure of the source of the problem nor how to correct it.

I have a heavy weight LBT bullet design for my .44 Mag. - 330grs. When I try to size the bullet in my Saeco lubrisizer - the bullet sticks quite badly on the way in, & even worse when trying to get it to come back out.

I have checked the lubrisizer & there is no binding in the mechanism.
Pulled the die & verified that the plunger moves up and down within the die without binding - verified it was not bent by rotating the plunger "around the clock" and checking up/down travel in each position.
Ran other bullet designs thru the die without problems (same alloy and same starting diameter as the problem bullet).
The alloy is air cooled WW at BHN 12.
Sizing die is (verified) .4311", bullets starting at .4325" - .433"
Bearing length being sized is approx. .625". (6 lube & crimp grooves fall within this .625" length and account for approx. 30% of this length not actually in contact with the sidewalls of the size die.)

Also tried applying case size lube to bullet prior to sizing - still sticking. One bullet stuck to the point of "freezing up in the die. Had to remove the die from the lubrisizer and force the bullet back out using a vise!

Anyone have any ideas what's going on and how to solve the problem?

Thanks-

Sky C.
Longmont, CO

Sky C.
I had the same problem with a LBT 280gr WFNGC 44 and never did solve the why, however runnin' em thru a LEE push thru sizer die first made em go thru the Saeco to lube em easy.

Sky I do essentially the same as John. If I'm doing any sizing I Lee push thru and lube in an oversized die.

Yet of late I've run a good number of 45 cal long rifle slugs thru my .459 Lyman H&I and do note some tendency to stick or drag if you will going in and then out of course. Methinks those slugs are entering at an angle-- the plunger then wanting to push that slug square from the base out and with the sizing off at an angle, coming out is much more difficult. It might stem from the fact [from what I hear on various channels] that the mouth taper on the H&I die in the newer versions-- isn't. As in too abrupt if any taper which makes centering the slug more difficult going in. That coupled with the fact those LBT designs are noted for wide meplats which probably introduces more variation into the nose punch fining a center on the slug.

I refer to these machines as 'lubers'. Because IMO that's all that can be accomplished with any precision-- in an oversize die.

I'd suggest taking a look at the side of the bullet and seeing how much shiny area you have and what shape the shiny areas take.
Could be your mold is out of alinement.
May want to try a flat nose punch that way the bullet can self aline.
Jim

Gentlemen-

Thank you for your assistance.

1) Have ordered a LEE push through type sizer. Will need to open it up to .431" dia as the largest sizer offered was .430" Why in blazes don't the CB tool companies offer sizers in sizes large enough to fit production guns! Arghhh!!!

2) Contacted Redding/Saeco to discuss the problem too. They asked me to send the size die and some sample bullets for them to evaluate. I will advise on the conclusion from their efforts once done - probably a couple or three weeks.

3) FYI on the top punch question... I use a flat type top punch on pretty much all my FP bullets these days. Have not seen any particular problem with bullets entering off axis. Evidence is clear on these bulets in particulat as they have a forward section of the bullet ahead of the crimp groove that is full diameter and gradually blends into the ogive. If a bullet gets off axis - the sized portion in this area would readily show up as uneven sizing around the circumference of the bullet. That is not happening here.

Best regards-

Sky

"1) Have ordered a LEE push through type sizer. Will need to open it up to .431" dia as the largest sizer offered was .430" Why in blazes don't the CB tool companies offer sizers in sizes large enough to fit production guns! Arghhh!!!"

Easy to lap one out Sky. Coat some bullets with lapping coumpound and push them thru. One thou would go easily.

SkyC: Do you think its possible that you are having to apply enough force getting the bullet to bottom in the die that it is causing a swaging of material into the lube holes in the die? 6 lube grooves seems like quite a few. How wide are they? Are they narrow enough that they are each bent up a bit when pushed in and then they want to push into the lube holes on the return? A push through is the easy solution but it's an interesting situation.

the long 4570 bullets tend to stick in a lyman for me. Escpecially the ones that are gas checked. Make sure your not pushing the bullet in even a little more then you have too. Ive even resorted to skipping the lube in the top grove to get them to work.

I'm with Stocker on this one. While I am not familiar with that brand of sizer, I assume it has a bottom stop to regulate how far the bullet goes into the die. Back that stop off and see if the bullet is swaging into the holes in the lube die. If that's the problem, a nose punch to push the bullet in just the right amount will cure it.

Gentlemen-

Thank you for your feedback. As a follow-up, I wanted to answer some questions raised and also report on the feedback from Redding/Saeco.

Bullet alloy swaging into lube feed holes in die: Nope. Careful inspection of the bullet and of the die show no evidence of the bullet metal swaging out & into those lube feed holes in the die.

Run the bullet into the die as little as possible: Good point - and my usual habit. Already set-up that way & the sticking problem is as previously reported.

SAECO/REDDING:
Had brief conversation with one gentleman early on. He advised he had not heard of the problem but suggested that I send in the die and some sample bullets for them to check. Got the die back with a brief note stating that the die was fine (I had no doubt of it to start with) and that the reason the bullets were sticking is due to the nose section ahead of the crimp groove being full diameter. ??? This is characteristic of most all LBT designs. I know this.

Anyhow - had a subsequent call this AM... The gentleman I spoke with had no experience with the bullet sticking problem, but did not think it is a design limitation issue with their lubrisizer. He was very polite and apologized for not being able to offer a solution to the problem.

I have given it some considerable thought but still I have no conclusion. Especially in consideration of the following...

I did get one of the LEE push through sizers; lapped it out as Aladin suggested from .430" to get to my preferred .431" diameter. Pushing those slugs through that push through sizer takes some doing too. I had to apply more force to get them through that die than seems should be required. The push rod is actually leaving a swage mark in the base of the bullet (PB design) and a slight "fin" around the perimeter. Whatever it is about this bullet design, it is not behaving well during the sizing operation.

As a work around - I will try pushing them through the LEE die base first to see if I can avoid the "fin".

All in all - a most interesting challenge!

Best regards-

Sky

Sky
I keep a 1/2" ball of RCBS pistol lube handy when I'm sizin' thru the LEE sizers and rub it between my left thumb and fingers that put the bullet on the push rod. Then when I pick up a bullet to size I run it once around in my fingers and get just a little lube on it as I'm settin' it on too size. It makes the pushin' go much easier and I don't get the fins on the base that way.

"I did get one of the LEE push through sizers; lapped it out as Aladin suggested from .430" to get to my preferred .431" diameter. Pushing those slugs through that push through sizer takes some doing too. I had to apply more force to get them through that die than seems should be required. The push rod is actually leaving a swage mark in the base of the bullet (PB design) and a slight "fin" around the perimeter. Whatever it is about this bullet design, it is not behaving well during the sizing operation"

Oops-- sorry Sky I missed this one. Yes you can size a bullet off center with a Lee push thru. The simple solution is to make sure the bullet is sitting exactly on the center of the pedestal and/or litely lube the bullet with someting like Imperial sizing wax. Solutions are these: start the bullet in the die just to engage, back off and then move the ram up-- sorta a 'clutch' step of sorts. But with soft alloy some degree of base compression is still possible IF not lubed much. Also use the size die to the top end of the ram's operating range to make best use of the leverage at the top. Other solution is making a 'floating' pedestal, which I did for 30 cal by glueing a turned down rod into an 06 [cutdown] case. This allows the push rod some free play and by 'clutching' it finds center somewhat easier. Your also might try polishing that lapped out sizer some-- which should allow easier sizing. This I do with an old brush wrapped with a cloth scag and spun with a hand drill coated with a polishing agent like JB. You also might be able to have that pedestral that comes with the Lee float in the ram head by doctoring the spring which holds the head pieces..

[ 04-08-2003, 05:40: Message edited by: aladin ]

Do What Doublejk said to do. Get a Lee sizer. I use that exclusively for sizing and use my Lyman 450 for lubing only.

Checking the diameter of the bullet with a micrometer is always within .0005 which is just about as close as you can get.

Good shooting,

HBL

Sorry, didn't read all responses after the second one. Good to see you are trying the Lee. It also depends on the size of the press you use on how easy it goes. I also use an LBT LFN bullet at 300 grains. And to this point have never had a problem with the Lee sizer. At the current time I use the RCBS Special2 press and also the Rock Chuker press. Both of these work well with the push through Lee.

Good casting!

HBL

[ 04-08-2003, 05:27: Message edited by: HBL ]

I also had a problem with the bullet being hard to push thru and ending up with the "fin" on the base with the Lee sizer and and it turned out to be the press. I had the cheap Lee "C" type press and it was flexing on me, causing the ram and the die to be out of alignment. I changed to a stronger "O" type press and that solved all my sizing problems.

Ruger#1

You might try annealing the bullets for sizing, then re-harden and lube.

It does get a little difficult pushing those big 44cal bullets through the Lee Sizer, but what I did was after casting I did not water drop.

I drop the hot bullets in to a box filled with rags, so there was no deformation.

The bullets go through the sizer much easier. Then I heat treat, then using my Lyman 450 I only lube. thats all I use the lyman for anymore. I have Lee sizers for all my calibers.

HBL

Hello Gentlemen-

Thank you for your additional recommendations. As it turns out - I cast using WW + 2% Sn & air cool all bullets. They typically run about 12 - 13 BHN.

For whatever the reason - the long LBT design puts quite a strain on the sizer during that operation. I need to cast a few more for more experimenting but I suspect that I'll need to be running these through the sizer - base first. Should pose no problem as the noses are already nice large flat meplat designs and going thru the LEE die that way should work fine.

Re: the press I use - It is an old C&H single stage "H" press. No real mechanical advantage but it does give even support & does not appear to be "flexing". I think the fin is just a result of the plunger being slightly under the size of the bullet and allows the metal to extrude past it under the pressure required to size the bullet.

Best regards-

Sky C.

I would still run the bullets through the Lee sizer, nose first. The ram that sits in the shell holder slot of the press is designed to accommodate the bullet base or gas check base.

HBL

"I think the fin is just a result of the plunger being slightly under the size of the bullet and allows the metal to extrude past it under the pressure required to size the bullet"

Sky I observed same in 30 caliber. I made a pedestal to fit the base otta 312 rod stock and glued that rod into a 06 case. Using the shellholder allowed that push rod to float to some degree and starting the bullet and then backing off and restarting as I posted above about eliminated the problem. This using PB bullets.

I've observed same in 45 caliber and know it's affecting groups, as the unsized and hand lubed bullets group better.