Found this on the Bellum sight. Interastin'-- I posted to ask what dimensions he's cutting those throats..
"I will be cutting throats on the 45/70 and 450 Marlin until Feb. 15th. and then will need to send Mike Bellm his reamer back....
I watched my friends 45/70 go from shooting 2 1/4" groups at 100 yards with the Nosler Partition Gold factory ammo to shooting 1" groups out of the same box of ammo, after I cut his throat right there on the range....
Don't forget that you can also get a 6-screw base put on while I have your barrel, as well as my "MAXIMIZER" brake and barrel recrowning....
...the diameter is .4580 and the leade angle is 1 1/2 degrees, the length is up to the customer.... DAVID"
I was thinking of having this done to my H&R Buff Classic. Is that a good leade for cast boolits?
Ian
IMO Ian yes... but ... you'd need to fit that throat for best results with cast. If it'd improve the Buff's accuracy is a good question, as the rifling is just over 2 thou deep.
What kind of accuracy are you getting with your Buff? I ran a thread while we were on Shooters about the Buff- and recently posted a brief condensed form on another channel about the factors affecting the Buff's performance. Rather than just post the URL-- here's that copy.
Now to discuss the Buff-- I've had such for about two yrs now and have shot it extensively. I like the look of the gun-- I am not running it down just stating the facts as they are. I have about 1500 rds thru mine and it's fully tuned... around a 2.5 lb trigger which breaks like an ice-cicle and groups that at times go into hole large hole at 100 for numerous rds. But the gun comes with limitations... most can be corrected though with some home smithing.
The barrel out of the factory is the biggest obstacle to accuracy.. I mean with cast bullets which is what the 45/70 is about. I have never fired a jacketed bullet in mine BTW. Yet the barrels normally come with a tight area just out of the chamber and get gradually larger towards the muzzle. Worst scenario for a cast bullet... the stronger shell of the jacketed bullet handles this better though. Problem is the barrels are button rifled as a blank and then profiled to their final shape, which releases stresses in the steel and allows for the hole to open. Not good-- but a $300+ gun is what we're talking about. With skill and care these barrels can be lapped to good accuracy with cast... this I have done. Not by hand mind you, but applying some ideas I've developed over a decade of cast shooten. In the end, most often the barrel can be lapped to produce accuracy.
My trigger otta the factory was very poor. This I reworked myself taking very small steps in the honing process. There's direction on the net... best to let a smith do the work or H&R. But for anyone with very average mechanical appitude this job can be done-- and very well. My 2.5 lb has stayed consistent for the life of the gun yet I feel this is too lite for most given the wide profile of the trigger. Something at 3 lbs would be better. My trigger BTW is totally 'dry'...I suggest avoiding any grease etc.
Bedding is next, the forearm. I read alot of posts on here about tweaking the barrel stud with washers etc. Forget this with the Buff.. the thin barrel profile easily absorbs tension/stresses from this stud-- overtightened or bedded to it. I have done this with no long lasting consistency. Bed the forearm area with glass to fit the barrel while using a spacer at the forearm end. Clamp this and allow to dry minus the screw tension.. two areas fore and aft the stud is sufficent. This way the screw can't draw the barrel down in any way.. and do not overtighten. This results in lasting consistency.
Handloading is simple.. use good brass-- Rem makes very good 45/70 cases. Winchester is junk. I use Lee dies and partial size the neck area till I find the neck tension that works. Polish the inside of the neck with an old 45 cal brush to promote uniform bullet release with cast. My cast are all wheel weight alloy.. the lead/tin alloys simply aren't required.. even for black powder. Shooten these bullets UNSIZED for best results.. filling all the lube grooves for smokeless is counter productive at times.. 4759 is hands down the best fuel with the big target bullets at around 21-22 grs. Seat them to engage the lands at closing. Black powder is easy to get good accuracy with the same bullets... use a good lube meant for such... not one of the hard formula's which is all that's ever failed me. Something towards soft for your climate works. Best accuracy is using unsized [Black powder] brass and just inserting the bullet.. some use a very lite crimp to hold it in.. I use a smear of extra lube and also use home cut wads otta card stock. But again at closing you want the bullet front bearing surface ON the lands. 67grs of Goex 2F makes 1140's and is accurate with the Lymans. 54 grs of Goex 3F makes 1100 fps and is very accurate. I have reached 1250's [Postell 535 grs] with 3F and still good accuracy.
Sights? I'm not there yet. Recently I saw a Buff with the factory sight and this looks to be adequate for what the gun's made for. Nothing competitive to win much for sure. I do not like the idea of bedding a tang sight but might relent. Yet good sights would cost more than the gun... I'd prefer a receiver mounted rig but do not like what I see on the market so far. I'm looking at adapting a ladder sight to the receiver.. we'll see if this pans out. This wouldn't require the long ladder for range either and also keep my head down near the stock.
If your Buff otta the box drills them.... I hope so for your sake. But my focus is making this gun competitive with any 45/70... and now mine is. Took some work but tuning a gun is one of my interests. But be sure... one nice group on paper means about nothing evaluating a gun. Getting consistent accuracy otta the Buff most often means some work... as with the majority of factory made guns.
Posts: 1529 | Location: Central Wisconsin | Registered: 01 March 2001
I haven't shot mine much to tell ya the truth, but I made a chamber casting for Mountain Molds and Dan said that it would probably shoot a lot better if I had the throat reamed to a gradual leade. I figure for $35 it can't hurt.
Ian
Posts: 294 | Location: Kentucky | Registered: 09 March 2003
Of course, you realize that the custom mold that Dan made for my old throat no longer applies.. and that is the only mold I have. I wonder how it'll shoot. I have Lee's 405FP in my Midway basket, just waiting on sufficient funds to make a decent order. I hate to pay that <$25 order penalty charge.
On a different subject, how do I go about opening up a 458 saeco lubricizer die to 459?
Ian
Posts: 294 | Location: Kentucky | Registered: 09 March 2003
Got a confirmation E-mail. Arrived Friday night, throat was cut and barrel repackaged for return saturday morning. Will be in the mail to me on monday.
Ian
Posts: 294 | Location: Kentucky | Registered: 09 March 2003
It's looking like the temp is going to stay in the mid-lower 30s and we're under a flash flood warning till tomorrow sometime with rain forecast the entire weekend. I can shoot in snow... 35 deg rain is another story altogether.
Ian
Posts: 294 | Location: Kentucky | Registered: 09 March 2003
I'm finding sizing a gradual taper on the bullet's front driver/s making it a gradual bore ride taper works well. This mimicks the design of the Applegate 525 gr 45 caliber spitzer-- which shoots as well as any 45 caliber bullet I've tried, minus any sizing a-tall. I understand Rob Applegate [the moldmaker] will also throat a 45 caliber barrel to fit this tapered rider. I would surely like to hear from someone who's done this... has to be one heck of an accurate setup.
FWIW. To find a combination that works in the Buffalo Classic I resized the bullet's front drivers using a Lee push thru 452 die. This die produced a very gradual taper from 4515 to 459+ on the rear band. Seating depth to slightly engrave lengthened the OAL .20"-- changing the expansion ratio which asked for over 1 gr more 4759 to make the same fps. While this setup is the most accurate for me, this long seating addes enough boiler room area to make ES's rise to the 15-21 fps area-- given albeit limited trials. The whole bullet resizing process I don't think is practical for day to day shooten, but I'm going to revisit this long tapered effect this spring breech seating the bullets at the bench.
Posts: 1529 | Location: Central Wisconsin | Registered: 01 March 2001
Well, I did the unthinkable and scoped it. The results are in... sort of... I loaded up some 325gr GCs from a Mountainmolds mold, Lee's 400gr FP, a 400gr HP that I think is a Lee(courtesy of DJ), and Lee's 450gr FP. These weren't "worked up" loads, just ones I picked randomly out of the book. I used IMR3031 for all of them. All of them were loaded out to just short of the lands except for the HPs (I loaded them first and had a brain fart). In general, the longer/heavier the bullet the better it grouped. The 325s shot a string about 4"long for 3 shots, the 400s shot about 2" and the 450s ended up shooting about a 1" (4 shots)group at 75yds. The 450s were extremely sensative to powder position. The first 2 times I shot, it poofed and the chrono said 750 and 950. when I tilted the rifle back to put the powder on the primer it jumped to 1350. Need some poly batting on top of that load. They also had to be loaded way long to get them to reach the lands. OAL was 2.92, I think I had all of the top lube groove and the edge of the 2nd one hanging out of the brass. I'd like to try some 500 grainers. I might order a mold in a few weeks. I am going to do a repeat of this exercise with Re-7 on monday. I've never shot any jacketed out of it yet, I have some 405gr SPs enroute from Midway at the moment. I'll give them a whing when they get here.
Not very scientific but I hope it helped, Ian
Posts: 294 | Location: Kentucky | Registered: 09 March 2003
