We get caught up in the mainstream of shooting and I think few ever stop to ask the question (let alone show any interest) 'how little velocity can I use and still kill cleanly'.

From time to time folks ask about 'silent loads' and I'm not talking about going down quite that far. But, I have to reason that a 150 grain bullet going 800 fps would do a decent job, provided the nut behind the butt did his. I also conclude that it is even more evident that a 400 grain bullet would as well. True, tracjectories would be enormous beyond 50-60 yards but within a short range....as in shooting from a deer stand, these low speed loads should hit pretty damned hard. Think about it; would you like to be shot with a 38 wadcutter from a 4" revolver? HELL NO! Certainly a 400 grain bullet from a 45-70 at 800 fps would penetrate a deer through and through at 50 yards......you're talking about a critter no more than 18" wide, even if it's a brute.

Seems as if the prevailing thought is to crank up the volume (speed) and try to blow the target all to hell as if its armour plated, under the guise of a 'sure kill' and humanity towards the animal.

If that's the case, perhaps we should use nothing less than a .400 caliber magnum of some sort and restrict shots to 75 yards and less.

Hello;
I dunno. I've always looked at the problem from the perspective that, what matters is to put a hole in your target at a lethal location. Ft. lbs. on target have never mattered to me as much as having a trajectory flat enough to do the job at a reasonable range, defined as where my faculties are adequate to score a hit. In my case that is about 300 yards. Obviously, target energy can be arrived at by bullet weight or velocity and Shooting science could be defined as trying to define the best balance. As with anything else, it is not an exact science and each side has its proponents.
Grizz

Jumptrap...that mention of being shot with a 38 wadcutter made me thing of something. A long time ago, when Jeff Cooper answered the handgun questions in Guns & Ammo, he was asked a question about the 38 special and 22 magnum for self defense. He was asked his choice. He replied with a reply that wouldn't get him alot of letters. That reply was if he was asked which he would rather be shot with, a 38 special or a 22 magnum, Mr Cooper said he's pick the 38 special to be shot with.

I guess if you were in a tree stand and shooting at a deer below with a 45-70 loaded down it would work but so would a 45-70 loaded up fast with a very hard cast bullet. This hard cast bullet wouldn't expand but it would have alot more shock then the slow one and it wouldn't blow the deer up. I think an alternative would be a mild loaded round.

Jumptrap makes a valid point. A 400 grainer starting out at 800 fps or so won't shed all that much velocity in 50 or 75 yds. Didn't those buffalo hunters way back when shoot their quary from long distances with big soft bullets, at relatively low velocities, by the time the bullet made impact. If you could drop a bison you could certainly drop a deer. Muzzle velocity only makes a big difference (within reason) as range increases.
In regards to having a choice with what you might get shot with....I bet a 38spl would punch a hole in the most hard-headed individual that ever posted a message on this board.
Regards, Cheeky.

Let me site two cases that shed a different perspective.

A friend, a police officer, killed by two shots - .22 LR.

Another friend shot the robber (7-11 holdup) at 4' away with .44 magnum - lived.

Obviously one was taken to the hospital quickly.
Bullet placement was important.

Jump--That's what I'm experimenting with this deer season--driving a slug slower,but with better expansion from a cast alloy. I'm using a 252g, 429421 composite boolit in a .44mag and driving it at 1050fps from a 5" bbl.I've cleanly killed every phone book and Jacques Pennay catalog I've shot! Expansion has been great,approaching 1" at 25 yds. Penetration at that distance has been approx 5 to 6 inches. Recovered boolit weight is around 242g. My only concern is......what's the deer gonna think?

Yep, the 44-40 cowboy loading was probably the deer killer before the 30-30 became in vogue, only by aggressive smokeless powder advertising of the day. What's that 44-40? A 200 grainer flat nose tin can buster at circa 1000 for the target, all from a 6 thru 24 inch tube. Even the 45LC had more punch in those days. ... felix

I got over serious magnumitis some years ago, and wandered into the realm of cast bullets. For a hunting round, I still like at least 2000 fps, and prefer 2200. This is strictly from the trajectory aspect, to give a good shot to 200 yards. For plain ol' paper punching, I don't care how fast they go, if they are accurate.

Ray: I am sure that the deer will be quite indignant at the thought of being shot with a cheap cast bullet loafing along at a pidling 1000 fps when all his buddies are being shot with something over 2500 fps. However I thik that he will get over his attitude in short order. Good luck!

When an animal is shot, what causes it to die? What's the difference between an immediately lethal shot and one that takes longer, like, an hour or so?

Good thread...It doesn't take near as much as most folks think to kill a deer cleanly and quickly. Grumble has raised the time question. That is always a valid consideration. Back in my salad days I killed lots of deer (one shot, clean and quick) with both the 25-35 and the 25 Remington. Both of these round are considered "marginal" these days. They were and are far from marginal. I will guarantee you that any handgun bullet of 40 cal or greater, throwing a bullet of 200 grains or greater at a velocity of 900 fps or greater will kill deer quickly and cleanly out to 50-75 yards. Your parameters certainly will do this well or better.

Chargar.....what are salad days?

Dang fellas, I have also been pondering the same thing a lot lately. My 12 year old son and I both got drawn for Pronghorn doe tags this year and we have been trying differnt loads out for him to hunt with in the two rifles we have available. First I tried a 125g jacketed going 26-2700fps in an .06. WAY to much recoil. Then some 110g jacketed bullets loaded down to 2500. Getting closer but still a bit much for him in prone position. I also tried an 87g bullet in a 6.5 swedish at about 2950fps. He thought this load was OK but the side scope mounted Krag that we are shooting it out of seems a bit clunky for him to handle. He shoots well with the .06 and Lee 311-113F with 11g of 700x but I don't think this bullet going about 1700fps has enough down range energy to cleanly take an animal. I do have some 311291 and 311466 cast bullets that we could load to lower velocities and lower pressures but would these have enough "pop" to bring down a Pronghorn? I'm very concerned that if we wounded an animal and it took a long time for it to exspire my son might be turned off of hunting. Thanks for any advise you may have KevD

KevD...The Lyman 311291 at 2K per second if placed in the right place will kill any Desert Goat out to 150 yards or so.

JumpT -

The thought of big heavy led boolet at moderate velocity with mild recoil was exactly my thinking in getting the Rem 700 in 35 Wheelen. The 358009 was too long/heavy to be stabilized, so I'm going to try something just a little smaller.

Reminds me of the article some years back on how slow a 38 spcl could be driven and still get it out the barrel.

Grumble the difference between an immediate lethal hit and a slow one is, depending on whether you have snow on the ground or you're an excellent tracker, is being able to find your deer or not and wasting good venison. One of the bigger reasons I don't archery hunt is the deer rarely go down quickly and they are hard to track in the early season because vegetation is still very thick. Can't count the number or archers I know that lost deer because they couldn't find them. Alot of them started out with a major blood trial only to stop after so many yards. Now I agree that a well placed shot with a heavy slow moving large caliber boolit will kill a deer and even larger game, but I've also seen deer with their vital organs blowed away and major tissue damage, plus broken bones, go amazing distances. It's impossible to predict before you shoot if that particular deer is going to drop quick or run a long ways. I have shot quite a few with my 45-70 with cast boolits (405 gr RCBS gascheck) and the farthest one ran was about 75 yards. To answer you other question they die from major organ damage (usually brain, heart, or lungs) and bleeding to death.

Salad days are what my wife sticks me with now that I'm old and fat.

Starmetal - As an archery hunter, I can say i have had kills with an arrow just as fast as with a bullet. there was an extensive study done some years ago about this. The animal can live up to 1 1/2 seconds longer with the arrow than with a bullet, given a good hit. this translates into 20-30 yards.

When those guys run out of blood, they are telling you they don't know tracking, or the game they are hunting. When a blood trail ends, they have basically bled out, and will be laying within fifty yards.

They will start to circle at this point, generally on a right hand track, although I have some track left. Also, if they can't track on dry ground, they probably shouldn't be there.
If they don't know the rules of the game, they shouldn't be playing.

I'm glad to see you are responsible enough to realise the required skills of the challenge. I wish there were more like you.

For tracking blood, I recently read that hydrogen peroxide sprayed on a leaf or ground that contains blood, will cause it to bubble and thus confirm blood. I also recently read that a blue light will also glow when shown on blood. Anybody tried these techniques? No,I didn't learn of this from watching CSI!--Shuz

Ray..I've heard some guys talking about the blue light where I live.

Ric...I find that hard to believe what you say between the different times between arrow and bullet performance. I've known alot of archers that hunted in my times including one state archery champ that was coached into going whitetail deer hunting. Even though his shot were precise dead on, at alot of different angles, and various brands and types of broadheads, he only recovered one deer. Yes I will agree with you that the recovery rate was do to poor tracking abilities, we all don't have native american blood in us, but that wasn't what his statement was about. His statement was he just couldn't believe that none of the deer he shot dropped within a visible distance. I've only known one hunter that dropped a deer in it's tracks with an arrow and that was becasue his shot went wrong and ended up hitting the deer in the spine literally knocking the vertebrae out as it was laying on the other side of the deer with the arrow still stuck to it. I can't count the number of deer knocked down in their tracks with bullets. I'm not condoning archery hunting just saying it's not for me. I'll admit I'm not a good tracker. I have told some archers if I want more up close stalking I'll resort to a handgun with iron sights. To me that is as close as gun hunting can come to archery.

Joe

Mark...Interesting post.

Some of you know and some don't that I love the old nostalgic calibers.

The 32-40 was a killer. The 38/55 had a mean reputation up until it was discontinued. The 45/70 with a Gould HP at 1338 FPS was the standard for years for deer and bear.

I'd imagine the 32-40 was about 1400 something and the 38/55 was in the same range.

The deer and bear haven't gotten tougher. We haven't gotten to be worse shots (except in some cases). BUt, we are not the woodsman that we once were. That's what makes the difference.

I have an old Model 34 Remington 22 sitting in the cabinet that belonged to dad. I'll bet that thing has killed 100 hogs in it's lifetime for butchering....he always prefered a short hollow point. We usually recover the mushroomed bullet in a batch of brains and eggs. Yeah boys...I come from the country.

So, I agree with jump...you don't need that much. You just have to get close and put that bullet in the right place./beagle

Beagle..agree with you 100%. Had a friend that shot the 32-40 in target matches. Very impressive.
I like the older calibers too. My best friend said to me: "What happen to you, you use to be a modern bolt rifle with scope lover"? He said now I'm back to the old lever actions with either open sights or peep sights. I told him it was more fun and you don't need the big magnums for all types hunting.

waksupi-I believe you've hit the nail on the head! In thirty years of archery hunting, the longest track I ever had was 300 yds. give or take a few, through a corn field. Totally my fault, shot placement a little too high only clipped one lung, a pass through shot but little blood to trail. If it wasn't for blood high on the cornstalks the outcome might have been different.
jim

The research I referred to was done by experienced hunters, in Minnesota and Africa. Recovery rates were exactly the same for hit and wounded deer and larger African plains game.
Starmetal, I think you hit it on the head, that the guy was a competition shooter, and not a hunter. I have watched a family that shoots exhibition archery, shooting such things as aspirins out of the air. I shot with them on a 3D course, and they could barely hit the full size animal targets. They were not hunters.

The biggest elk I have killed with a bow, a 6X7, went about twenty yards before he was down. I have had probably a dozen animals fall in sight when the arrow was PROPERLY PLACED. Some will continue to graze, not realizing they have been hit.

If you are really interested, I will see if I still have the article around. It was by a veternarian by the name of Samuelson, I believe.

Shuz

Hydrogen peroxide is very good in a spray mist bottle when you are hunting in the fall, and leaves are falling that are red, or as around here, have red spots that look a lot like blood spots. It definitely foams up.

I don't know about blue light, but I do know a Coleman lantern will show blood much better than a flashlight.

Ric...you are probably right as you are more experienced in this area then I. My neighbor just lost a deer in our first week of archery season where I live. I think he made a lung shot as they recovered the arrow and it had bright red foamy blood on it. He watched the deer after it was hit it ran a few yards and reached around and grabbed the arrow by the broadhead (as it was sticking out) and pulled it out and ran off. They never found it. He said there was a good blood trail to where the deer stopped and pulled the arrow out. He's a firm believer that if now arrow is protruding and staying in the animal that skin can't slide over the wound and seal it. He's convinced that if the arrow slips all the way through that the skin seals the hole pretty effectively and there's not much of a blood trail.
His son is a pretty decent tracker and he couldn't find it either. While I have your attention here do you live anywheres near Mike Venturio that is one of the writers for a gun rag?

Joe

Wow! That's a real Rambo-type buck!

I believe Mike is living down in the Livingston area.

The shot through the lungs without full penetration tells me the broadhead was probably not properly sharpened, and some larger bone was probably hit also.
You are much better off with full penetration for good blood flow. I've seen blood pump from elk ten feet away in a geyser.
Nevertheless, there was a dead buck laying somewhere close by. If all else fails, sit and wait awhile. The birds will tell you where it is.

while I was out, sems like the whole crowd stopped by! I took a virus or some kind of nasty bug and been laid low for a bit.

Nowadays, I do lots more pondering than shooting and hence, this thread.

I'm not suggesting we should all go back to the bare minimums, but just questioning the mentality of 'needing' X velocity to do the deed.

A couple seasons back I used my 45-70 and a pure lead 405 FN at around 1500 fps to kill my deer. I shot through a 3" beech tree before the bullet hit the deer. I know that tree absorbed lots of energy and expanded that bullet to the max......but it still whacked the deer.

The use of a pure lead bullet in the 45-70 was an experiment and it worked super. Pure Pb is tenacious for staying in one piece....almost putty-like and of course it expands very easily on thin skinned critters. using felix lube and 41.5 grains of Re7, I had no problems with leading at all. I will always use a pure lead bullet for deer in the 45-70 from now on.

As for hard cast bullets.....I once shot a deer directly below my stand with a Colt Anaconda 44 mag......not once, but 5 times and the deer walked off. I dropped it with a 280 Ackley. End of my piss-ola hunting days right there and then.

I am a firm believer in hadguns are for shooting men and small creatures. When things get serious, take your rifle.

Jumptrap...don't give up on the pistols...instead use an expanding bullet, if cast a softer alloy, and you know what's available in jacketed. The hard cast just shoot through them like full metal jackets.

I love the 45-70 with soft cast lead bullets. My favorite deer medicine.

I understood the meaning of the original topic. I too don't believe in using a rifle such as a 300 Winchester Magnum for whitetail deer hunting. Maybe they have their use in long long shot in more open country. I'd rather use my 45-70 or 30-40 Krag.

Joe

I'm glad to hear someone shooting deer with pure lead. I picked up some 385 grain swaged bullets marketed for muzzle-loaders to shoot in sabots, paper patched them and tested a few. I was amazed at how well they stayed together. Loads were rather mild.

Have a friend that uses Paper Patch pure lead bullets in a 45-120 and a case full of black powder for deer and says it does dump them. I have shot 1 gal milk jugs filled with water with ball ammo in a 7.62X39 and it just punched a hole thru it. Gal jug water with 30-30 and the 113gr Lee at about 1700 FPS blew up . I could not believe it. Could it work on short range deer? don't know but would guess it do as well as a 32-WCF.I have never seen a deer droped by the 32-20 so don't know how well it works?

[ 10-09-2003, 18:48: Message edited by: gregg ]