All,

Have been slo-o-o-o-wly gathering up the necessities to start casting my own bullets. This was driven by my inability to find 'factory' cast or swaged bullets for a 38 S&W (NOT a 38 Special)I inherited from my dad. I am already a reloader, so I don't want to buy factory ammo for it (and the price for factory Winchester 38 S&W is WAY up there). Got a lot of help from Orygun Mark and others on Shooters.com and am now (after several months of looking) the proud owner of two Ideal 360 271 single cavity moulds (one new and one used, but in excellent condition). I have also acquired a still new in the box Lyman Mould Master XX 20 lb furnace, a 4500 lube-sizer with a heater, a .360 sizer die (plan on getting a .361 sizer die from that guy in Schertz TX; can't remember his name), and a few other odds and ends (ingot moulds, handles, dipper, Lyman's 3rd Edition, RCBS Cast Manual, Col Harrison's Cast Bullet, etc.).

Now, like everything else I do in reloading, I have decided to expand to my 44 Mag and buy less of those not very cheap jacketed bullets (ain't it amazing how wanting to save a few dollars seems to cost much more than a few dollars?). Have been looking at various moulds for the 44 and was thinking about getting a Lyman 429215 in a 4 cavity. Guess that leads to my first question:

Is it really that difficult to work with a 4 cavity as is printed in all the books?

I was looking at the 429215 because it's a gas check (giving me the option of loading it slow or fast; with or without a gas check) and it's only a 215 grain, giving me a little more economy. Does anyone have an opinion on this mould?

So I'm looking at Lyman's 3rd Ed, then I start reading the 'fine print' and notice that they say all but one bullet (429348, 180 grain) when loaded are too long for everything except the Thompson Center. Crimping is not up for discussion with me (I WILL do it) so I assume that Lyman's moulds have the crimp groove set for COL of longer than 1.610, and are thus useless for me and my Ruger Super Blackhawk? I do not own any Lyman reloading manuals other than the Cast Bullet; is there better loading info in their 47/48 Ed manuals or their Pistol and Revolver Manual?

If this is the case (and even if it isn't, I guess), what do you guys recommend for a good all-around mould suitable for my Ruger? And is my quest for an all-around (fast/slow and economy) mould a pipe dream?

I've got Lyman #429215 but never tried them in a Ruger. They worked fine in a couple of Charter Bulldogs and cycle through my Marlin 1894. Never got much accuracy out of them in the 1894, but that's likely the gun.

Just for chuckles, Lee is surplusing some six cavity 215 grain .44 moulds for $25. They are plain based, but the price can't be beat.

www.leeprecision.com/catalog/browse.cgi?1052678069.2525=surplus.html

A GC bullet is not needed in 44 handguns, unless you are going for a hollow point with a butter soft alloy. They do have some utility in rifles. If you concerned about the cost a plain base bullet is the way to go. I think you would be happier in the long run with a heavier standard weight bullet. The plain base Keith based design (429241)and the gas check Ray Thompson design (429244) are better bullets for sixguns. Both are supurbly accurate with the Thompson having a very slight and meaningless edge at long range. To be certain the 4 hole moulds are heavier, but I don't find them hard to work with.

Not sure about the COL issue with the Lyman .44 molds, but the 429215 was the first mold I ever bought and the only mold I owned for probably 10 years. I used it in my Ruger Super Blackhawk and it worked just fine. I bought it because the Lyman handbook called it "probably the best all around choice for the .44". That was back in 1976, BTW.

I worked up an accuracy load of 20.0 grains of IMR4227 - sort of a weird combo as this is a fairly slow powder and 20 grs. is a light load - it would leave lots of powder granules in the barrel and cases. I imagine it only gave about 1000 fps but was just incredibly accurate in that revolver. Probably a lucky combination of bullet and throat diameter but I never knew nor worried about those things back then. I just loaded and shot a bunch of them and was quite happy with the results. Never shot anything bigger than a jackrabbit with it but it would knock the holy snot out of them. Another plus was the lack of recoil.

The popular thing in handguns now is "heavy for caliber" bullets, like 300 grain .44's or even heavier, but there is a place for a good mid-level bullet like the 429215.

TooBroke, I worked with a variety of cast bullets for .44spl and mag- fact is that's how I found the Shooter's cast board- Chargar and Deppity Al walked me through a too-tight throat problem in my 629.

I can't recommend the 429421 strongly enough. It weighs in at 242g of wheel weights plus 1/19 tin. I've never used a more accurate .44 bullet- ever. As Chargar mentioned, there's no need for a GC. I drop the bullet straight from the mould into water, thereby "annealing" the bullet to a harder BHN. I've driven the 429421 to the heaviest safe loads recommended by WW and Hodgdon and the 429421 continues to perform without fault. I've settled on H110 for medium to heavy .44 magnum rounds- and load LOTS of .44spl with the 429421- 6.5g of Unique can't be beat.

You 'n me are looking for the inexpensive way to go as far as equipment is concerned (I'm only allowed to spend what's in my margin account...... ..... I shoot the 429421 as-cast (no sizing needed for my 629) and I lube with Lee's Liquid Earwax- here again no equipment needed 'cept a 2lb. plastic butter tub....works great- I've never had any leading problems. When I do hafta size (some .38s) I use the Lee push-thru 'cuz they're cheap.

Good luck, you can't find a better bunch of folks than right here.......

Toobroke;
I'd recomend Lyman's 429669. It's their version of a "cowboy" bullet, and in my Redhawk it's very accurate. Mine drops out in W/W at .431. I tumble lube them, and shoot "as cast" I know it goes against popular opinion, but you couldn't run fast enough to GIVE me a 429421. I have had 5 (3/2 cavity, and 2/4 cavity) It's the most cantankerous design to get to fill out I ever used. When they do, however, it's a damn fine bullet, I just don't care for a 50+% reject rate because of rounded edges that are supposed to be square. I don't have any trouble using the 4 cavity Lyman's other than they are heavy, and get tiring faster. I have recently been using some of Lee's 6 cavity molds, and am very pleased with them. they are lighter, and drop 2 more bullets per pour. I havn't used any of their 44 designs, so I can't speak for that.
krag35

toobroke,

I use to shoot the Saeco mould number 424 which is a 240 gr TCGC (truncated cone gas check) out of my S&W Classic when I had it. Which the scope that I had on it, it shot about an inch at 50 yds.
My plinking load was the same bullet over 10 gr of Unique at about 1000 fps. Now that plinking load was lots of fun and accurate too. My Saeco mould is for sale by the way along with all the other 44 mag stuff I have. If you or anyone is interested in it let me know here.

Joe

2Broke - 429215 is an excellent bullet and has been my favorite for the 44 mag for years. A gas checked mould for the 44 caliber is a good idea as well.

Now about this mould in 4 cavity, or any mould in 4 cavity for that matter..... Most bullet moulds sort of have their own quirks and until you learn to stroke them just right, they can give you some grief. Usually nothing very serious. 4 cavity moulds are no exceptions to this rule.

There is really no magic to using a 4 cavity. Just takes a little different and more coordinated pouring technique. So no problem there either.

Probably the biggest thing you will notice about this mould is it's HEAVY. You are holding a pretty good chunk of iron out in front of your hand with quite a bit of leverage working against you. Your wrist will tire pretty quickly. Plus when the mould gets too hot to cast good bullets, it will STAY hot for longer just by virtue of all the steel.

But you are on the right track. I strongly suspect you should get an oversized set of GH&I dies for your lube sizer. It took .431 diameter bullets to make my last Ruger 44 Mag shoot.

2400 is great powder with this bullet and would suggest you start around 17 grs and work your way upwards. Probably your gun will like them all.

Or there is the alternative of just ordering whatever you like from Leadhead Bullets and let him buy the equipment and sweat over the lead pot. He does custom sizing also.

Starmetal E-mail on the 44 stuff, please. Thanks

Toobroke,
The 4 cavity moulds are heavy and require a little more warm-up time or applied heat to help warm up. The 429421 works fine in my RBH Bisley. When I have to load a bullet deeper than the Min OAL in reloading manuals I drop the powder charge a little. Saeco and RCBS also mahe some nice 44 cal moulds. I also feed a 16" LA carbine and T/C in 44 Mag. That bullets is also really nice in HP.
Orygun

My favorite Mould for the 44 in my super Black hawk is the 4 cavity Keith Mould, which is 429421 I think I am not looking at my manual or mould right now. Anyway I have found the 4 cavity easier to work with. I use a bottom pour Lee melting pot with 4" of clearance, and a 10 pound Lee with 4" of clearance.

Things to consider:
What is more expensive for you powder or lead?

long range impact/stabillity or ease of shooting?

will you be shooting the 44 much?

Here are my thoughts:
I prefer a heavier bullet both when hunting and just plinking. For hunting I like the advantages the weight gives me. BUT for plinking I like heavy bullets because Lead is CHEAP and powder AINT. With Lighter bullets you as a general rule you must burn more powder to get the full use of the cartridge. Powder is exspensive wheel weights are cheap.

My lyman 4 cavity is heavy, takes a little longer to warm up than 2 cavity moulds, and it is more expensive up front.
BUT It aint too heavy. You will get used to it within a few casting sessions. it will increase the strength in you hands and forearms and may turn you into a better shooter.
AND once that big chunk of iron warms up it is easy to keep it at the right casting temperature, much easier than 2 cavity moulds.
AND you will be able to cast TWICE as many bullets at a time with the 4 cavity. Just start your pour from alternating ends and you bullets will come out perfect.

A few other things to consider:
Gas checks to me are a pain in the butt. I avoid them when at all possible. The add a step in your reloading process and drive the cost up $20 or so per 1000. With the lighter weight bullets like the 215 you may need a gas check. with the heavier bullets you will not. This is another reason I like the heavier bullets. The REAL HEAVIES like a 350 grain bullet may need a gas check as well, but the average heavies like 250-300 ussually will not.
For the .429 caliber my favorite weight bullet is 250 grains. I have shot 180's, 240's, 250's, 270's, and 350's. Like some don't like some. The one that wins my loyalties is the 250 keith style every time.

Another thing 2400 is my choice for powder. Where I am it is more expensive than 296 or H110, but it performs better, too

I am not going to proof read this long drawn out post so forgive me for any typographical errors and mis-spellings. I also appologize for the length I just wanted to make sure all things were on the table and help as much as I can before I got tired of typing.

Good luck choosing a mould. Keep us informed on what you decide and how it works out for you.

Also, forgot to mention: the 4 cavity Lyman is fater for me to work with after I hit the sprue plate open, I swing the handle open (all the way) turning the bullets face down toward the reloading bench (so they will be able to fall) with one handle in my hand the other on the bench (mould completey open and now straight), then I tap the hinge joint which is now in the center of the two block halves. Bullets fall right out everytime. I hope I described this good enough. May need to have a 4 cavity Lyman in your hand to see what I am talking about.

David

i started casting when i started shooting a srh 44mag in a local steel match. i tried a couple different moulds and several alloys, but only one powder.( my education came from the shooters cast group and reading a bit)
the best advice i got was to size for my gun. i slugged the cylinder and got consistant numbers a tad over .431. this created a problem as most moulds stop at .431 .
i honed a sizer to .4316.
i beagled a mould to produce boolits close to .432
i use two alloys: water cooled ww and water cooled 3:1 ww/lino.
the ww is shot with a gc in place, and the lino boolit is shot without.
velocity is 1340/1350 with a 7.5 inch bbl
powder is aa9(or wc820)..warm load is neded for the heavy steel targets.
i have two lyman 429244 moulds that produce boolits around 260 gr.
accuracy is outstanding.
the lino shoots aprox 5/8" 5 shot groups at 25yds and the ww/gc is 3/4" at 25 for 5 shots

Nothing to argue with here--lotta good advice. My only current 4 cavity mold is the Lyman 429244, and if you follow the guidance provided herein you will do fine.

I cannot over-emphasize the importance to dimensional integrity regarding boolits, chamber throats, and groove diameter. HOPEFULLY--the throats are the same dimensions as the groove diameter. .0005"-.002" larger throats will be fine--just make sure the boolits are AT LEAST throat diameter, or .0005"-.001" larger. Think of it as a very subtle funnelling effect.

The other dimension to be concerned with is the bullet's length--or more precisely, the length of its driving band body. The front shoulder of the boolit should be well-engraved into the forcing cone and bore BEFORE the boolit base clears the chamber throat in the cylinder. Both Lyman 429421 and 429244 easily accomplish this with every 44 Special and Magnum revolver I've used with these boolits. I have no experience with Lyman 429215, so I cannot say how it lines up in that regard--but since it is a very popular and generally accurate boolit, I imagine it fits just fine.

I have found that the heavier bullets shoot better even with light loads. Years ago when I was in IHMSA I used a 240 gr. bullet in my .44's. These shot great except in the S&W revolvers. I was watching my friends bullets go downrange in the scope and they were yawing around the flight path bad, going as far over as the next ram. We tried 265 gr. bullets and the problem went away with the bullets running a clean path. I now just hunt with my Rugers and use 310 to 325 gr. bullets with exceptional accuracy. Ruger's seem to be a little more forgiving with bullet weight and some of the light ones still shoot great. Never figured out why the S&W was so picky, twist rate should have handled anything. I sold all of my S&W's because it was not possible to win with them. The only way I could get them to shoot great was offhand. Thinking back, I should have gone to the 300 gr. Hornady. I wish I still had one because it is a fine gun, I should have fed it what it liked. One thing about the S&W shooting from the Creedmore position was that it was very grip sensitive. Had to hold it exactly the same way. I could shoot a 1/2" group at 50 yds. with it, but if I layed it down to paint the target and picked it up again, I would still get a 1/2" group, but 10" higher. Couldn't teach my hand anything.

BFR, you aren't the Lone Ranger! ... felix

Dang, I wouldn't've thought of the spiraling path of a yawing bullet getting out that far from the line of sight! That could explain some accuracy problems I have run into from time to time. Also could explain some of the stories, often scoffed at, of bigger groups at shorter ranges than longer ones, as some yawing bullets stabilize dynamically and tend to return to the original flight path. Anyone seen this happen?

[ 11-09-2003, 02:58: Message edited by: NotRicochet ]

I guess old Elmer Keith's amazing long long distance shot at that mule deer with a SMITH & WESSON must not have yawed so far off course as other Smiths.

429215 is very accurate in everything tried. Really doesn't work well without the gascheck. Makes a GREAT all around bullet in the 44Sp. 8.5gr Unique in a Special gets well over 1000fps and can be shot in any size pistol. Makes a good varmint bullet in the Mag. Can get between 1400-1500fps. A little light for all around use in a maggie. As stated, the 429421 is the best all around bullet ever designed for this bore size.

another vote for the 421429 or the rcbs 245kt or 250kt