Felix - I'm still playing with the 250 gr. Bator bullet in the .358 Win.

I'm getting good accuracy with a full case of WC860, with a five grain kicker of 3031. I haven't chrono'd it, but believe the velocity to be around 1500 fps or so.

I have a good lube star at this velocity. But when i try to push it up to the 1800 fps range, accuracy spreads out to about 6 inches, and no lube star. So I believe I am running out of lube. I get some light lead flecks at this speed.

What component would you suggest I add to FWFL for the desired velocity? I suspect castor oil, but thought I would ask you, and maybe save myself a whole lot of frustration.

Thanks!

Ric, castor oil will solve the speed problem, and you can add some more lanolin to insure enough accuracy. However, if you are still flaking lead after sufficient lube mods, then you might be getting into a twist problem. A 12 twist is quite much in some guns with sharp lands. Is your gun like this? Deep grooves too? ... felix

Felix - Yes, this is a 1-12 Douglas barrel. I've done a small amount of lapping to smooth it a bit.
I wondered about the twist, but then I see writings by Ed Harris saying you can't overstabalize a bullet. Of course we know the Swede has a problem with it.
I'd sure like to get up to 1800 fps with this heavy bullet, so will try your suggestions.
thanks!

Felix - When adding more castor oil in, will I need to heat the mix up to smoking point and stir for a half hour to get a good bond?

For a few trials, Ric, no. Best if you do after you figured out how much castor to finally add. This is because you might forget one of these days, and let the castor seep out of the lube and into the powder. Always store boolit down when rounds are stored in the closet long term, just in case you did not heat enough, or long enough. ... felix

Ed Harris is correct, you cannot overstabilize a boolit. However, you can very well indeed overstabilize a less than perfect boolit. Tires out of balance cannot be felt driving around town. Up the speed to 70 mph and see what happens. Rotational speed, in practice, is an enemy of cast boolits. ... felix

I agree that a bullet can't be overstabilized. A stable bullet when it leave the muzzle is one of our goals. However, in it's passage down the barrel too much rotation can torque the softer alloy bulletagainst the harder barrel steel and damage the bullet in that way. At least that is the theory I hold.

Felix- I added in both castor oil and lanolin to a small trial batch.

I was able to push the velocity up to 1900+ with a light lube star. It was rather dry, but there nevertheless. Lower velocities had a "wetter", larger, lube star.

Accuracy got better when I went to a harder bullet at the higher velocity. I suspect I am once again at the verge of running out of lube. Accuracy is in the 4 inch range at 100 yards.

Will adding more lanolin help tighten the group more, and make a "wetter" lube star? Or more castor oil?

I am keeping in mind I'm doing this testing in 20 degree temperatures, and will expect entirely different results when things warm up next spring again.

20 degree temps? Ric, that's nuts by our southern standards. Yes, you need a wetter lube yet for those conditions. Increase both, but put emphasis on lanolin. I never tested this lube formulation in like conditions, so you are pretty much on your own down there. Increase the basis oil too, if you detect some lube on the retrieved boolits. If your accuracy starts to go south you probably have too much lanolin/castor in the mix. Dilute with basis oil, and if TOO soft, add some beeswax. Keep the dialog going so we can resolve this temperature thing together. ... felix

Basis oil?

Basis oil = initial thinner, like baby oil/III, etc. ... felix

Ok, I've reformulated, and have a batch that is definitely "slicker" to the feel. i'll give it a try tomorrow with a harder bullet, and see what happens.
The moisture of the lube star. Is it the mineral oil, or the castor oil? Or maybe both? I'd rather work from an overlube position with a given velocity, and then begin reducing the amount to what ever the right amount is.

Ric, the star shows the lube is wet enough. Ideally, the star should appear good in broad daylight only after about 5 to 7 rounds. Too quick, it is too wet. Castor will greatly make the lube wetter, and the basis oil only slightly wetter. Too wet, you run the risk of giving up accuracy in a correct twist, but in your situation, too wet might not be a factor, especially if your grooves are on the deep side. The marlin grooves tend to squish more lube quicker from the boolit, thus making for a wetter environment. A really wet lube will enduce skidding up front, and that has to be watched out for in shallow grooves and quick twists. Obviously, a lube should really be formulated for the round as intended in one gun to get the optium results. For example, it is hard indeed to whip Gray's #24 in a 6mm BR gun. But then, is it the lube?, the shooter?, the balanced round? which makes the difference on a given day. Don't know, but that's just an earmark to shoot for if nothing else. ... felix

i shot some more today, with some harder bullets. i was pushing them near the 2200 fps level I'm guessing, didn't set up the chrony in the rain and snow. It definitely had an authoratative push. just a trace of lube star. I got light leading in about the last six inches of barrel, so tonight, I've added in some more castor oil and mineral oil, and about half a teaspoon of my home made soap.
I also cast some fresh bullets with more shot and a bit of linotype, then oven quenched them. I'm trying for speed just for the heck of it now, as the groups today were in the four inch range.
The experiment continues.

Keep it going, Ric! You are fighting that quick twist. When you get no leading, your lube is proportionally correct. However, look for lead slivers. That will tell you that the boolit is not holding on to the lands properly. Try adding more tin to the lead, hoping to coat ALL of the antimony which would hold the antimony to the lead body better. Antimony-lead boundaries shear very easily, and putting tin in between does a better glue job, even though the total boolit will get softer quicker. That would be ideal for hunting, anyway, it seems. ... felix

The lube star is a good sign. If the next experiment does not work lube wise, add some more lanolin to help those last 6 inches of barrel. You are looking for a slight silvering (not slivering) of the barrel at the last few inches as an indication that the lube is NOT too viscous. When the lube is too viscous, that would allow the accuracy to go south over so many rounds because of incognito lube buildup. ... felix

Felix, what do you mean by silvering?

Silvering is something that looks like a white powder wash, rather than the blacker or the wetter remains of lube. The wash, or sorta that dry look, desired would allow exquisite rifling to show through, and absolutely no buildup of anything at the end of the day without stroking the barrel during the day. It won't hurt to add a little more of "something" to the lube to make the dry wash to begin going away if accuracy improves by doing so. By this time you will start to occilate about the optimum lube mix for that primer, powder, boolit, ambient conditions. ... felix

Didn't have a chance to do any load testing today. I had an appointment wit ha cutomer this morning, then went out hunting for a few hours for " Practical Application" on the loads I'm currently using. I saw 14 deer, mostly does and fawns, two small bucks not worth shooting. I'm looking forward to taking a buffalo next week, so am selective in my meat shooting at the time, but am still looking ahead for more effective loads, penatration wise in the .358.
Hence, the experimentation with the lube and harder bullets for good penetration on a heavy skin animal. I know what I have now will work, but it gives me an excuse to play.

I have found cast bullets the most fascinating hobby I have ever pursue!

Felix, we may just about have this old dog whipped.
I tried the new mixture, and got velocities of around 2150 fps, and a group of around two inches. I don't think I will push it much further, as the recoil is getting somewhat energetic!
I've still got a small amount of leading, about like flour gold, so I've added in some lanolin, and will try again shortly to see what happens.

I tried the loads with the extra lanolin. Accuracy was pretty decent. I added a small tuft of kapok to keep any stray lube out of the powder.
Velocity was 2101. Flat. No variation. I'd never seen that consistancy before, and wonder if my battery may be weak. I'll change it and try again tomorrow most likely.
Even with the extra lanolin, I was still getting some small amount of leading at the last few inches of the barrel, and virtually no lube star. With the extra ingredients I've added, I find it hard to believe! The mix is getting rather soft, so am considering adding some parafin, but wonder what this is going to do to the ratios I've got going so far?
The were two slivers of leading along with the flour size lead, so I will recast again, and add more tin per your instructions. The leading was causing the shots to climb on the target.
I'm not too concerned about using up the linotype and tin, as I fugure once I hit the formula for the alloy, I'll run a bunch of the same, and just put them away for future hunting seasons.

Ric, lube might be a little soft, but in your cold weather I doubt it. A shot of paraffin won't hurt the lube character. I just might be your barrel is still a little rough, and the best way to run that down a little should be done next summer with boolits with little tin and lots of antimony, and not shot so hard. The antimony crystal is sharp and will cut off any sharp steel edges over time, say 500 rounds. You can speed that up with a simichrome job every 50 rounds or so. Just speculating, and hoping that twist is not torquing that boolit that hard to make it strip. It seems your accuracy is good enough for big critters, anyway. Maybe not for shotgun shells at hunnert, but so what, right? ... felix

Add some paraffin, and drop the lanolin back proportionally if the general accuracy is holding up by doing so. Add a mite more castor to increase the velocity load, and if the accuracy really goes south, add the lanolin back in to increase the viscosity which helps short term accuracy. ... felix

Great stuff here guys. Keep it coming. Gianni.

Glad you are enjoying, John. Ric, one thing to keep in the back of your mind is that the barrel could be choked wider than "cylinder", letting enough pressure to escape fast enough to cause a sandblasing blowby. One way to decipher this would be shoot a comparatively fast powder, starting at 4198 and working towards 2400. If these powders shoot more accurately, then we know almost for sure there is a barrel problem other than just plain ol' smoothness and twist. To be on the safe side, when you stroke the barrel with polishers or more aggressive metal takeoffs, do so only before the last six inches of barrel. In other words, don't make the choke any wider. ... felix

That's an interesting thought. I ran a slug through the barrel before it was mounted on the action, and I noticed no tight spots, but since then I've shot about 150 condums, and maybe 7-800 cast. I did use JB bore paste in a serious effort towards polishing the edges of the lands when I was first starting in with it. I kind of suspect I should run a couple hundred more condums through to smooth thing a bit more aggresively. I kind of chickened out on the fire lapping idea some time back. As it is, I'm reaching my velocity goal with very little signs of leading. I'm going to also try a shot buffer, or cream of wheat buffer, as Veral says it will scrub out small amounts of leading.
I've got to restrain myself on changing too many things at a time. I'm still not fully comfortable with the bullet hardness, and will be adding in some tin as your suggestion to try and capture that ol'Debbil antimony, and try to get rid of those last couple slivers of lead.

Ric, I know this is almost heresy as FWFL is good, but have you tried a different lube just for the heck of it? I've used LBT blue with no complaints. Beagle swears by GAR 50/50. Just a thought. shooter...

Ric, What powder and charge are you using to get 2100 to 2200 fps?

Shooter - I've not tried other lubes at the time. I do have some Javelina I may give a go.

This morning, I went to corn meal filler in the loads. I had also added another tablespoon of castor oil and about two tablespoons of pariffin.
It's still a pretty soft lube. I'll post my additives as close as I can later, to see what I'm working with.

With the corn meal filler, I had no leading, and a good lube star. I will have to try without the corn meal, to see if the castor oil or the filler was the determining factor.

I'm shooting 42 gr. WC 852(f) for the 2100 fps. with a Winchester magnum primer. This is making a group of around three inches at a hundred, and I haven't played with seating depth yet, or other primers.

I am somewhat puzzled. I was always under the impression that adding linotype to an alloy would make the bullets drop larger, but lighter from the mold. I cast up a batch tonight, with a good dose of Lino, and sized them. Some of them showed no sizing on the driving bands. So back to the pot they go. Did I have this size thing backwards?

Ric, antimony is the only metal we use that enlarges as it cools. Tin and antimony both lower the weight of a boolit, but bismuth will make the boolit heavier. Thus, a combo of antimony and bismuth will tend to compensate for any weight loss. Tin will tighten up antimony or bismuth or both together, making the boolit smaller and tougher. So, as the tin increases with an antimony laded boolit, the boolit gets smaller. ... felix

[ 11-16-2003, 18:06: Message edited by: felix ]

Ok, that makes sense. I purposely kept down the shot in the alloy, to keep the antimony amount down. I'll oven quench these today, and see what happens tomorrow with them, assuming I can get any shooting time.