ok first of no preaching about using hand loads for personal defense( i'm not interested in lawyers or supporting them or old wives tales about using my ammo against me...its never happened in a court yet).
what i am interested in is how cast bullets/boolits perform against car window glass/doors ???
i dont carry loaded weapons, but seldom travel with a gun that has no ammo.
once a month or so i'm carrying a 44 mag, my target load with this gun is a 260 swc 3/1 lino/ww at 1340 or 1350 fps ww with gc. both are water quenched.
so does anyone know how cast and glass do ????
my next option is to work up a load with xtp's both 300's and 240's......last option is to buy(gag) ammo......but only if cast wont deal with glass or doors( esp say 45 degree frt windshields)???
again please no preaching..just some performance facts.
thanks

sounds like a trip to the local car graveyard might be in order here. sounds like a ball to go and test different loads on car targets...(if you can get the owner to oblige). tell us what you find out

THE 2NS AMENDMENT PROTECTS US ALL........

A number of years ago I attended a self defence class by John Farnam where we shot at an old auto. I used my 45 Colt S&W, with cast bullet handloads. These were 255s at 1,000 fps. The bullets barely made it thru the wind shield, did not make thru the door and did little harm to the tires, 45 acp did better.
I'm guessing, the failure of my loads may have been due to the lower velocity. Your's may have enough velocity to punch thru.
Jim

The place I used to live at I had tires stacked and filled with sand for my target backstop. I shot just about all calibers of handguns with cast bullets at both low and high velocity including 22 rimfires and all of them penitrated the tires easily. I also was experimenting with a 1/8 inch steel sheet at a 45 degree angle to see if it would deflect cast pistol bullets into the dirt. Well it didn't work because my 45acp cast loads and 45 LC cast loads shot right through it. Ok...long ago when I was teenager a bunch of friends and I were shooting at an abandon and discarded 1948 DeSota (pretty long ago huh?) and you know the metal on the cars back then sure as hell was thicker then it is now. We were shooting at it with a variety of rifles, no handguns sorry, but want to make this point. I had a 22 rifle and I could shoot through both doors as long as the bullet didn't hit some kind of mechanism inside the door. It also shot through both portions of the roof where it sweeps down to meet the body. So I was impressed with the 22 for sure. I find it had to believe that a 255 45 LC slug won't make it through a door and barely through the windshield. Another time I was shooting a 44 cap and ball with pure lead round balls at a junk automatic washing machine. The balls were making it through the side, both sides of the tub, and denting the oposite side.

Mike I have no doubt your 44 mag load will shoot through car doors and any of the glass.

I'd be pretty confident of them shooting through these tin cans they make nowadays. I did have the oportunity to shoot up an old car with a Thompson submachine gun some years ago. None of the hard ball penetrated the metal on that old tank at about thirty yards.

From my experience I would suggest put card board box behind the wheel with a target. Try to hit the target.
Personally, should I need to shoot thru a windshield I'll do a double tap. One to fracture/craze (I think that's the term) and the second to hit the target.
If I was to shoot thru a door I shoot thru the window using the same process, there's too great of a chance of hitting window mechanism or window.
Jim

ar10ar15man
I had reason to test the penetration of both FMJ , jhp and CAST bullets in handguns fairly extensivly on hard materials a several years ago.

On soft targets big heavy bullets did best BUT on hard targers speed, hardness and shape and diameter are the keys. Bullet shape played more of a difference than one would think.

H&G made several different conical pointed bullets. That out preformed FMJ ammo in 9mm 357mag and 44 magnums. On sheet steel and
kevlar.

For example I used 9mm NATO and 9mm 115 gr fmj +P+ as controls and tested them agent plates of sheet steel separated by 1� The fmj only dented the outer plate H&G #307 fired from a 5� barrel Penetrated Both front and
rear plates. I don�t have the test data in front of me. This is from memory.If you need specifics I can look it up.

This same load tested on 1 gallon jugs of water blew them up like hit by a hi fps hollowpoint. I have some photos of this.

In the 357 magnum this bullet cast from hard alloy was nothing short of awesome. I was so impressed with this bullet I had a mold made/

They made several versions of this same type bullet for the 44 mag from 130 to 300 +gr. I only had a few samples of this bullet in the 180gr range and the limited test I ran with them I was very impressed with there performance.
These preformed best agenst the slanted windshield glass tests.

Best performer in penetration of steel for handguns was a 30cal 82gr (steelcore) conical fmj at 1900 fps 30 carbine load loaded in the Chek Republic

BK

Hey Mike...no experience with the 44 Mag on cars. I once popped an old Studenbaker at the police range with some 200 grain FMJ .38 Specials that the Air Force had. Penetrated both doors pretty good.....complete with upholstery...they wuz hot.

Old Elmer writes of some car stopper loads in the .44 Mag. Seems like it was in the supplement to Sixguns.

His load was the 320 grain H & G Keith over a bunch of 2400.

Now, I've shot refrigerators with the old .44 Magnum Norma carbine load out of a Model 29 6". Sitting three side by side, that load penetrates 2 1/2 refrigerators and makes a big dent on the last wall.

Some outfit...think it was on the east coast was marketing for a while, a .223 bullet made from depleated uranium powder sintered into bullets with a space age epoxy that was designed for LE to penetrate car windows.

I haven't seen the ads lately and don't know about the legality of the bullets but it was a neat sounding concept.

I'll bet some of the Soldier of Fortune wannabes have some stuff on this if you hit their sites./beagle

I used to shoot a junked 1952 Buick Roadmaster convertible. (Circa 1970-72.) Shot that thing till there weren't any unshot parts. That big old straight eight block bounced off all the jacketed rifle bullets I tried. Got a Super Blackhawk .44 Mag and Lee Loader. The store had some cast, gaschecked & lubed Lyman #429303, about 215 grains with a sharp point like the old Winchester .357 Metal Piercing bullets. The powder they had that fit with the Lee Loader's recommendation was IMR 4227. I think that dipper threw 25 grains of it, not a really hot load by any means. But that load from that Super Blackhawk would shoot through the wheelwell of that big old Buick and hole the block where a .30-06 with softpoints wouldn't.

Modern engine blocks are cast a lot lighter than that old Buick.

There was also an abandoned former house and country store behind the Buick. Did some testing on walls. Standard factory load .44 Specials with the 246 grain round nose lead bullet would shoot all the way through the building, with wooden clapboard exterior, and plaster-over-lath interior walls, about three of them in a row. Made me very careful about thinking about shot lines in self-defense situations.

Ric,
May seem I am getting on your butt again but I'm not hehehehehe. I bet Bonnie and Clyde wouldn't agree with your Thompson story. Yes I know a variety of other rifles were used in that ambush. I've seen some actual footage of Thompsons firing on old cars, like the 1930 models, and it sure did tear them up. By the way I have a Thompson, semi version, but I haven't shot any cars with it...YET! hahahaha. Don't forget in my previous post about that 1/8 inch steel steel that I shot at with my 45 cast loads. What I didn't mention was I was shooting from a distance of 50-65 yards and althought every bullet didn't punch through it they all indeed did crack it as to see light through it. I guess it depends on the circumstances and gun and ammo. You all surely remember the story old Skeeter Skelton told about going to dispatch a big cow hit by a car as he had the then new 44 magnum and he wanted to impress his fellow officers with the gun and his reloads. Seems his reloads were very anemic as the bullet bounced off the cow's forehead actually even hitting some of the fellows. Another officer had to shoot it with a 357 mag and they teased him for years over it.

Joe

Notricochet
That old DeSota we shot I mentioned in the other post. We had a 30-06 with 150 gr soft points. A shot was taken at the front tire from the drivers side. The bullet went through the tire, cut and broke the coil spring in two place, clipped part of the steering rod, and put a hole in the block about the size of a large grape fruit. That impressed me. I guess it depends on where you hit the block.

My cousin shot a car at a junk yard with a 357. I was just a kid so don't remember the load. He shot it from the back straigh on. The bullet went through the trunk, back seat, front seat, dashboard, firewall, and hit the engine. I can't remember now if it cracked the block or not. He also shot a toilet. It shattered into many small pieces. Probably not a good thing to shoot at close-up.

The same friends that shot at the old DeSota were also involved in shooting at a "fishplate" which is the iron plate that a railroad track sets on. The plate between the rail and the tie. It's about 5/8 of inch thick in it's thickest place. Rifles we shot at it with were: 30-06, 7x57, 30-30, and 222 Rem. All but the 30-30 went through it. The caliber that put the largest hole in it? 222 Rem. All ammos was hunting softpoint.
Joe

Penetrating slab-sided sheet metal and thin linkages for rolling up side car windows seems to be pretty straight forward. I'm intrigued by the idea of straight-on shots into angled and curved windshields, though.

Which would be better for a sloped windshield, a pointed or flat nose? Soft or hard nose? Would the bullet deform to fit the slope of the windshield, thus concentrating energy on a certain point, or would the bullet deflect, allowing the energy to be distributed over a larger area?

Not that it applies to this discussion, but I once saw a windshield where the driver shot through the glass with a .38 from the inside. Left a nice concave-out hole.

wow lots of entertainig and enlightening stuff on this thread.... thanks for all the in put guys...

THE 2ND AMENDMENT PROTECTS US ALL...........

Starmetal, no offense at all! The Thompson I was shooting belonged to a friend, and I have no idea what the loads were. They may have been light for all I know. Just stating a personal experience.

Here's another comparison story.

One day I came across an old rusty boiler at an abandoned minesite, FAR back in the boonies. I had a #4 Lee Enfield .303 along, and being curious I tried to penetrate the 3/4" thick iron of the hulk with the .303 rifle.

GI 174-grain FMJ, made with a fiber or aluminum nose section inside the jacket, barely disturbed the rust on the iron's surface. NO dent or crater of any description. I expect this was due to the DESIGNED impact-instability of the Mk VII military ball bullet. .303 armor-piercing behaves VERY differently, I can assure y'all.

On the other hand, 180-grain round-nose commercial softpoints cleanly penetrated the boiler wall, throwing up a big curled (or cratered) lip around the holes and leaving about 3/4" holes into the inside of the vessel.

Quite a difference!

A .220 Swift with a varmint-type 50-grain SP bullet will drill through 1/2" mild steel as if it were cheese.

I think a handgun bullet for optimum "windshield use" may need some kind of biting-edge to minimize the chance of skidding on the slippery and radically-sloped hard surface. A sharp point (such as #429303/358093) or pronounced edge (like a SWC or LFN) on a cast bullet would seem logical.

Regards from BruceB (aka Bren Mk1)

starmetal: I use those rail cleats (fish plate) for hanging metalic targets. What I'm talking about is 8" x 12" x at least 5/8" thick. I've never shot one up close and stationary, but I know that .270W, 7mmMag, 7.62x39 non-AP, 45/70 and 30-30 will not penetrate it when hanging. The .270 and 7mm will crater it pretty good and the 45/70 will really swing it around with almost no crater. The 30-30 and 7.62x39 non-AP leave a little splat mark.

My .45acp with 185gr cast semi-wadcutters @1000fps will penetrate as good as 230gr ball at 800fps - maybe a little better. Neither will puncture a propane tank at 25yds. Both will puncture modern car sheet metal easily. I've never had the opportunity to try a windshield.

Bruce
Reminds me of the time I came across an old boiler in the Rocky Mtns. It was about 5//8 inch thick. All I had with me was my AR15 with some SS109 penetrators and some 55 grain fmj and soft point. All three went clean through it. The soft point made the biggest hole. The penetrator made the smallest that even looked smaller then 22 cal but probably wasn't.

dla
Our railplate was stationary and we shot at it from about 25 yds or more. I'm talking a very very long time ago so I'm wondering if those plates were later made out of steel as I'm sure the one we shot at was iron. I one time shot a section of rail with a 243 87 gr soft point from about 50 yds. I was sure it would only put a lead splatter on it as I believe those are made of steel. Upon investigation I found it left a slight crater and what more impressed me is the backside had a small bubble or lump on it from the metal displacement. The shot was taken in the center which is the thinnest part of the rail butmy got that's definately way thicker then an inch.
Joe

The only 'cast' bullets I've fired at cars were cast iron - 105's and 155's. Both did VERY well, leaving little.

trk
This being a cast bullet thread can you tell us the diameter you sized the 155mms to? Was the bullet gas checked or not, type of bullet lube.................
155s tend to make big holes where ever they land.
Jim

[ 11-15-2003, 05:42: Message edited by: arkypete ]

They were factory-cast - right out of the crate. Machined to bore diameter and brass bourlet (the ring around the base of the big boolet that engraves into the rifling). Nose fuses. Super-quick, delay and VT (variable time - or proximity) fuses. Occasionally some illumination rounds and in 105 some flechettes.

Lots of fun as cars don't fire back. Cheap shooting too - your tax dollars paid for it (THANKS!!).

Waksupi's right about the tin can cars now adays. I haven't tried glass yet but did shoot a 84 Mercury Marquis with a .44 water quenched ww, 300 gr FN at about 1100 fps. It went through the door, the console, and dented the far door. It convienced me that I wouldn't wanted to have been inside of it. ohshooter

I haven't fired at cars much, and don't have a whole lotta hands-on experience with bullet behavior hitting glass.....but I do haved some anecdotal experience examining the after-effects from such activities.

Our agency--and law enforcement in general--counsel against engaging vehicles or their occupants with firearms. Not to say that such engagements are unwarranted, because such moves are justifiable and necessary once in a while. Problem is--vehicles are pretty good cover from flying bullets!

In my area we get fairly frequent drive-by and vehicle vs. vehicle shootings, and it is surprising how few people get injured in those engagements--either intended targets or background bystanders. I once did ballistics tracing on trajectories in a 1980's Ford Bronco that looked like Swiss cheese--the 24 trajectories we traced went mostly through glass and acheived single pane penetration in most cases. Several bullets were stopped by engagement with a second pane or metal and plastic vehicle components. A few went through and through. The three occupants suffered a grand total of 2 bullet strikes--one of which disabled the driver, resulting in a 3 day hospital stay--the other was a flesh wound to rear passenger's right shoulder after passing through the rear window and back seat. The rounds entered in a 270 degree circle around the vehicle as two shooters (40 S&W and 45 ACP) strafed the recipients qas it traveled down Hwy. 60.

The bullet behavior was pretty typical--conventional core/jacket bullets are poor performers on cars. Hard cast bullets might enhance that performance, but terminal ballistics is ALWAYS a crap shoot--period.

A number of years ago I found some babbit metal at the scape yard. What attracted me to it was when I dropped it on the concrete to get to the lead pipe below the babbit chunk rang like a bell.
Considering the usual lead alloy lands with a dull thud that got my attention.
I bought all of it they had at that time, maybe 50 pounds at the same price as the lead pipe.
Turns out I had two different types of babbit, one that I call red and the other I call blue. The red stuff reflects red when a bullet is cast from it and the other is shinier more liquid silver in color.
Both make bullets harder then a whores heart, drop one from shoulder height on to concrete and there's no dent. The alloy cast beautiful bullets for my 375 Whelen using the RCBS (250 grain)? mold. The bullets proved to be accurate at full charge loads, I used 35 Whelen load data.
Any way, one day at the range I had the chance to shoot at a 8*8 1/4 inch steel plate used by the smoke pole guys for targets. That babbit bullet blew a hole completely thru the plate at 100 yards. Sure impressed me.
There's a difference between the velocity of the 375 Whelen and my 45 Colt cast bullets, most likely a by a factor of 2. something. I've not dulicated the same test with my wheel weight alloy, so it may very well be that wheel weight alloy would do the same thing.
Jim

I've had some experience with babbit. My best friends Dad use to get all we wanted from where he worked. Casting pistol bullets out of pure babbit showed similar results that Arky said in the previous post but we found that they were very brittle and shattered very easy on the stuff we shot at. We started alloying it down with lead.
One thing that I always remembered as funny is my Dad use to work on the railroad and he brought some scrap babbit home to make sinkers. He knew nothing of lead type alloys. The funny part is when he cast the first sinkers and dropped them from the mould, let them cool, then went to cut the sprues off. Sinker moulds at that time didn't have sprue plates. He use to cut the sprues off with a pair if diagonal pliers. Well he had alot more resistance with those babbitt sprues then with lead. It puuzzled him that they were so hard.
Wish I had all that babbitt now as I believe it's as good as linotype for alloying with lead.
Joe

the 105 and 155 sounds like fun... my friend built a copy of a civil war field cannon a few yrs back. i always thought it would fun to see what one those 1# lead cannon balls would do to a car. he shot a sihouette ram with it once .. messrd that sucker up real good.

The 105 and 155's WERE FUN. Something about seeing the car body disappear in a big orange ball of flame (the steel burning) with the top going straight up in lazy loops and the hood and trunk lid doing tight loops straight out along the ground.

Into mortars now. I CAST 4"pvc pipe (full of concrete) that weigh 7-1/2 pounds (52,500 grains)- wadcutters. Go out about 350 meters.