Need advice for top loads for 45 AR. Just purchased 45 Bisley, 7.5�, 98%, and it comes with three cylinders, 45 LC unfluted, 45 LC fluted and 45 ACP fluted. Two fluted cylinders were very precisely fitted, the gap is barely visible, I doubt that�s even .003�. The idea was to machine 45 ACP cylinder to accept 45 AR case. Apparently, this stubby case is one of the most accurate ever chambered in a revolver. I�ve seen article about S&W M25-2, 45 AR, loaded with Lyman 452424 and 14.5 grains of 2400, making over 1100 fps from 6.5� barrel. Would you have any other top load for 45 AR in 28-30,000 psi range, using cast bullets 230 grains and up? Thanks, Onty.

BUT, where are you going to find a steady supply of AR brass? That seems to be the limiting factor to the whole project. That would also leave a portion of the ACP head (when you could not get AR) unsupported and cancel out trying any warmer loads in the ACP case.

In my research, Remington was the only company to ever make AR brass. Not even Starline.

I very much like the 45 AR round having a few Smith and Wessons DA revolvers that take that round. However, I can't see the sense in your project. You covert a cylinder to take brass with limited availability to duplicat what that the same pistol will do with the two other unmodified cylinders. Why spend money to have the same thing you started with?

Believe it or not, I purchased 200 pcs. from local supplier, and he is going to get from storage another 300 pcs., once fired. Big suppliers like Lock Stock & Barrel, Inc., Midsouth Shooters Supply and Midway carry 45 AR brass made by Remington. I would like also to see Starline making this brass. As for 45 ACP brass, this is going to be used for standard pressure or max +P. Regards.

Chargar, the point is to get 255 grains bullet at 1100 fps with better accuracy than from 45 LC, if this works with this particular revolver. If not, everything should go on standard pressure for either AR or ACP case. Cylinder should be OK for both. As for the cost of the modification, my friend will be reimbursed with good local beer at the next picnic. Regards.

[ 09-09-2003, 05:48: Message edited by: Onty ]

Onty,

Love the idea!! I've always liked the .45 AR.

Really don't have anything good to say about Remington brass!! Hope Starline, or other QC conscious manufacturer, does a production run.

I'll be watching with bated breath!!

I do have a 45 ACP cylinder for my RBH that could be machined too!!

Regards,

Gents,
Even better than the AR is the 45 S&W Schofield. I load'em up in new starline brass and have a ball,,,you can keep the ACP cylinder alone too. nice light accurate loads are easy in a S&W case for me and the do look kinda "just right". 45nut

As much as I like the 45 AR and the concept of smallar capacity and greater loading density, I must say there is not fundamental difference in the accuracy potential between the 45 AR and the 45 Colt. The accuracy of each will depend on the pistol and the load. A 45 Colt can be loaded to give every bit as much accuracy as the 45 AR. If you have not done it, load a good 255 bullet over 20/H4227 and see what small groups you get. You will not do better with any load in the 45 AR. Oh yes, this load will give you the 1,100 fps you are looking for.

I have to agree with Charger. The 45 long colt is an accurate cartridge..it's the guns that it is shot in that may or may not do it justice. The important thing is having the correct cylinder throat diameter matched to the correct bore size.
I have a S&W Mod 25 8 3/8 in barrel 45 long colt that I shoot the RCBS 255 cast over 9.0grs of Unique and my best ever group of is pretty damn close to 1 inch at 50 yds and that's with iron sights. Hitting beer cans at 100 yds with it is a breeze. Took alot of money away from the 44 mag boys with this gun. I have an old 3 screw blackhawk in 45 LC with the extra 45 acp cylinder. Don't find myself shooting the 45 acp out of it much...it's just too damn much more fun shooting acps out of my two tuned 1911 Colts and my Thompson Semi-machinegun and my HK UPC Carbine.
Also wondering why your Bisley came with two 45 LC cylinder, one fluted one not? Believe it or not the unfluted one isn't any stronger then the fluted one. I wouldn't ruin the acp cylinder, I'd get me another acp cylinder to modify if you want the 45 AR so bad. Hell you might as well get two more acp cylinder and make one the 45AR and the other 45 winchester magnum then you would have the whole works.

Joe

Local smith installed two fluted cylinders after revolver was purchased. I agree with statement that, basically, there is no difference in strength between fluted and nonfluted cylinders. The strength of any cylinder is the strength of the weakest point; between chambers, bolt notch and outside wall, depends of caliber and five or six bore configuration.

My interest in 45 caliber evolved to conclusion that 45 S&W Schofield is probably the most balanced case of all 45 rounds in revolver in term of power, recoil and muzzle blast. One of my dream revolvers is five bore SA in 45 S&W Schofield or modified 45 LC in same length that could be loaded to make 1200 fps with 310-320 grains bullet. I came to this conclusion after lengthy research and reading, among other articles, John Linebaugh�s GUNNOTES, article about 45 AR in �2000 ANNUAL HANDGUNS� published by Guns&Ammo, and article "Quiet 454" in Handloader's Digest '96. Very experienced handgun hunter and well-known executive (now retired) in firearm industry confirmed my intuition. Here is extract from his letter:

"... You are correct....the case capacity of the .45 Schofield would be perfect with modern powders! Quite frankly the .44 Special is also great in a revolver set up for it. A rework S&W mod 27 or 28 would be perfect in either the .45 Schofield or the .44 Special. The cylinder would have the right diameter and the length would be perfect!.."

Regards, Onty.

Onty,
I looked up loading data for the 45 AR in Phil Sharpe's reloading book and he says the 45 ACP and 45 AR use the same loads. Some of his loads approach 900 FPS but are dated. All the rest of my load books top out around 800 FPS. Orygun

OK..Let's talk 45 AR loads vs. 45 ACP vs. 45 Colt. I have five DA Smith and Wesson revolvers in 45 ACP (three 1917's and two 1955 Target Models). I also have two SA revolver in 45 Colt with spare cylinders in 45 ACP (One Ruger and one USFA). I also have one DA in 45 Colt and three SAs in 45 Colt. I have been loading for these rounds since 1964. I only list these guns and say these things to let you know, what I have learned about the rounds do not come from articles I have read but from decades of use in the real world.

The capacity of the 45 AR and ACP cases are the same. Any difference will be in manufacture from lot to lot and maker to maker. You can shoot the same loads in either case. I have done it time and time again. In a Smith you can shoot a Keith style bullet, crimped in the crimp groove using either case. Of course you will have to use the clips in the 45 ACP case as the round will no longer headspace on the case mouth. If there is any accuracy difference between an AR case and an ACP case with clips, I have never been able ot prove it. I read all sort of opinions and pronouncments on the superiority of one case over the other, but it just has not worked out in the real world for me.

I have been shooting the Keith 452423 bullet, sized .454 over 7.5/Unique in my two 1955 Target Models for many years. Accuracy is outstanding and the velocity is 980 fps out of a 4" bbl. and 1,015 fps out of 6.5" bbl. There are no signs of pressure. I use this load in either the AR or ACP (with clips)with equal results. This load will kill any deer grave yard dead.

Some folks have loaded 2400 over a 240-250 grain bullet, in the AR case for a velocity of 1,100 fps plus for years. Older Speer loading manuals contain this data. It is good to remember that current 2400 is hotter than the stuff used for this load development. I have shot some of the 2400 loads and they do indeed give the velocity indicated, but they are pushing red line in terms of pressure. It made no to sense to run firewall pressure to gain an additional 100 fps in velocity. The ware and tear on the gun did not justify the use of a large does of 2400.

The 45 Colt comes into it's own when the AR/ACP rounds starts to push the red line. A 240-260 grains SWC over 20/H4227 will give 1,050 to 1,150 fps depending on the bullet and pistol. Being a slow burning powder, the heavier bullets will give equal or greater velocity to the lighter bullets. These loads are not excessive for regualr use in Colt SA or New Service pistols. In my Ruger SA revolvers in 45 Colt I use the RCBS 46-270 SSA (acutual weight is 281) over 20/H4227 for a full 1,100 fps (5.5 bbl) with outstanding accuracy. I also use these in my 5" Smith and Wesson 25-7.

You can shoot a 255 bullet at 1,100 fps out of a 45 AR or ACP or Colt case with equal accuracy. With the shorter case you must hot rod to do it. With the longer case you lope along at moderate pressure. There will be no difference in terms of accuracy on the target or effect on a critter. The difference will be the pressure in the pistol, with the consequences that go with that. There also might be a difference between the shooters ears.

I have no problem with a chap who wants to modify a pistol just for the fun of it, but lets not convince ourselves, that in doing so we are getting something we didn't already have.

Well made point Chargar! Talking about 4227 powders. Do you have any load for IMR4227. According to info I got, H4227 is just bit �slower� version of IMR4227. One thing I like about this powder; it is insensitive on temperature change, a big plus for any powder, especially in hunting loads. Thanks.

I use IMR4227 and H4227 as interchangable powders. I have never been able to notice any difference in terms of pressure or accuracy in handguns. Either of the 4227s. will produce outstanding accuracy in the 45 Colt. Some folks, while liking the accuracy, don't like the cost prefering to use smaller powder charges to stretch a lb of powder. Others don't like the unburned powder that 4227 sometime leaves in the barrel. I have noticed that the heavier the bullet the less unburned powder. When I use the 280 grains bullet, I have no unburned powder. I do not mind either the cost or the unburned powder (if any) because of the outstanding accuracy I get. I prefer loads that occupy most of the case capacity. A strong crimp and a tight case neck go along way to get the slow powder to burn completely. Either of the 4227s also give give results in the .357 mag, but I think good old 2400 is better.

Load your big loads in Colt cases and use the other cylinder for targets(good loads) or cheap plinking (Wolf or cheap reloads). In Colt cases, I use RN in factory type loads and SWC in big loads. Never have to guess which is which. Or, you could run a permanant marker (like red) over the heads of the big loads.

If you still want to modify a 45 ACP cylinder to take 45 AR cases, let me give you one more item to consider. Ruger 45 ACP cylinders are very funky. Take a look down the charge holes from the rear and you will see what I mean. There is a very abrupt and wide shelf where the mouth of the ACP case rests/headspaces. This shelf is several times the width/thickness used by other makers. This provides very positive headspace, but it also makes it impossible to seat a SWC bullet with any part of the body sticking out of the case. The shoulder of the bullet must be flush with the case mouth. Ammo that will work in other makes just won't chamber in a Ruger. So unless you modify this headspace shoulder you can forget about loading SWCs unless you seat them flush with the case mouth. This will do away with any advantage of using the 45 AR case. You could modify the charge holes, reducing the width of the shelf by reaming a taper at the rear of the cylinder throat. There is no ready made tooling to do this. Any high quality machinist could do this, but without ready made tooling, it isn't a job for the fellow with a lathe in his garage and I can say that because I have a lathe in my garage and I would not try it. I cannot shoot my 240 grain (452423) Keith SWCs, seated with the case crimped in the crimp groove of the bullet in my Ruger 45 ACP cylinder. I can in a Smith and Wesson but not in the Ruger. So converting a standard Ruger cylinder to work with AR cases and heavy SWC bullets is more than turning down the rear of the cylinder to accept the extra thickness of the rim on the AR case. Before you take the cylinder to a lathe, make up some dummy loads you want to use, but use ACP cases and see if they will work. I think you will find an unplesant surprise.

I agree with Charger but would say, hell if you are going to use 45 AR's the hell with the step at all. Just machine it out..of course like Charger said that isn't real easy at home. Someone might ask then what if you want to use 45 acps in it...then use them with moon clips.

Joe

Have reamed out the inside shoulder on 45 acp cylinder with a borrowed 45 acp throater. The cylinders now take same length lead loads as the semi's. Kind of like the idea of 45 AR single action, maybe for one of those cowboy type deals. A rim would make it easeir to stay put in belt loop.