Something on this Board in the last few days has got me cogitating about using conventional Lyman/RCBS bullet-sizing dies in an alternate way.

If the need arises for running boolits nose-first through a sizing die, or maybe if you need to size some HARD ones that the lube-sizer won't handle, how about this??

Make a 7/8"x14 bushing a bit longer than a Lyman/RCBS boolit-sizing die, which will screw into the loading press. Bore it out to hold a normal bullet-sizing die UPSIDE DOWN. The sizing die can be retained by a simple Allen setscrew, once it seats against the interior shoulder of the bushing.

If the hole in the bushing does NOT go all the way through at the sizer's outside diameter, but rather leaves a substantial shoulder to support what is normally the bottom of the sizer die, then no harm whatever should come to the die. I believe the normal drill-bit point angle would be OK in creating the shoulder inside the bushing. Of course, there will have to be a hole in the bushing large enough for the bullet to pass through.

(That is, through-drill the bushing at something well under the die's OD and over bullet diameter, and then ream to receive the die, leaving a good shoulder inside the top of the bushing.)

The regular push-out plunger in the sizer die would not be used in this mehod, of course.

A push rod to force the boolits through the die, maybe with a flange on the bottom end to fit a shellholder or the press ram, would be easy to make. A bowl to receive the sized bullets after their trip through the die could be just a plastic plate or shallow bowl with a hole in its bottom for the 7/8" bushing, and could be retained by a regular die lock-nut threaded down onto the top surface of the bowl's interior, clamping it against the press top.

This system would let use our regular tried-and-true sizer dies in a high-leverage machine, without messing with Lee setups or custom-made dies for the purpose. I think it would work, and I may just try it out.

Regards from BruceB (aka Bren Mk1)

BruceB -

I've thought of doing just that. Send me your email grid coordinates & I'll send you some cad drawings - for your editing. With a good deisgn, someone will pick up on it and make a bunch.

Tim K

covbldrs at i-plus.net

do the obvious

Beagle was working on something like this recently. Maybe he will see the thread and give us a report. Tony

If you could get 25 people interested, we could even get LEE to quote on building them. It's not like they don't have access to their threaded die stock before it gets final lathed, reamed and hardened.

Oldfeller

[ 09-10-2003, 15:55: Message edited by: Oldfeller ]

Bruce, um, I mean Bren, I bought a bucket of misc. reloading dies at a gun show for next to nothing. My intent was to make sizers or other single-use dies from them, but I'll never use all of them. If you'll measure the size of the RCBS sizers, I'll find a couple that are a couple thou smaller and send them to you. Save the trouble of all that boring to make your prototype. In fact, it might even be easier to get one slightly over the size of the RCBS die, and just make a sleeve of accu-steel or JB Weld.

Lemme know if you'd like to use them. grumble222@yahoo.com

I made one of these for me and Beagle a while back. His uses a set screw to hold the sizer die in and I made a nut to hold minne in. Beagle had some old dies that were almost the right inside diameter and I had to remove very little metal to make these work. Orygun

BruceB....Orygun Mark made us up a couple of sets and I use the heck out of mine in a Rockchucker.

I found some old dies that were made to use some type of adapters and had a .700" diameter hole all he way through. Mark cleaned them up so they'd accept Lyman or RCBS sizer dies.

He also adapted a Lee shell holder to hold the push through rod. These rods are easily made by turning down bolts from the harware.

Mine has two setscrews that hold the sizer die in place by clamping in the groove in the die. O-rings must be removed for use as the tolerance is too tight.

Some RCBS dies have an oversize protion on the outside which must be turned down before they will fit. This doesn't affect the use as a lubricator die later.

They work well. After nose first sizing with gas checks, you need to clean the lube holes with a punch of the right diameter as small chips of copper are sometimes shaved off the check and this will score bullets when lubing. This is the only caution I have encountered.

In a pinch and when you need an obscure neck sizer, I have used these dies for that purpose too.

Maybe we can get gussy to make up a batch.

Think I know where there's one more sizer die like that. I'll check tomorrow and if so, I'll post for you. Sure saves a lot of machine work.

Thanks to Orygun Mark for his work on mine./beagle

Man, you guys are a great source of ideas and expertise!

I don't have a lubrisizer, but I can sure use these ideas to get myself set up to size in my press for the diameters that Lee does not make their push-through sizer for now (which is what I currently use).

Many thanks for the ideas... now I just have to find a friendly guy with a lathe!

jpb

I like the idea. I also like the idea about getting a group order from Lee or some other source. I have one suggestion for the design. Instead of using set screws to hold the die in place. Thread the inside bottom of the die to take the same retaining nut Lyman uses to hold the dies in their sizer. This would make changing dies a snap and would not have remove O rings or risk buggering up the die with set screws. In fact you could probably use one of those Lyman/RCBS retaining nuts on both ends of the die. You would then have a simple piece of stock turned down and threaded 7/8 by 14. The inside would be bored to hold the size die and then both ends of the hole would be enlarged and threaded to hold the retaining nut. A nice knurled area on the outside top would be a nice touch and give a grip to screw it in. This would be a simple machining operation and once set up these size die holders could be produced easy and for a low price.

I had another idea. Some body might want to approach Hanned with the idea. They actively solicit ideas for new and simple reloading tools.

Here's what i have done to make nose first sizers.
Beagle sent me the die bodies. I made his to use a set screw or two if wanted. It didn't take much to make the sizing die fit. It has a Knurled end on the top.
With mine I cleaned it up just so the die will hang on the top lip and not go in all the way. I then used a ballcock nut(7/8-14) to hold the die in.
For a punch rod I took a lee shell holder and D&T'd it for 5/16 NC and then turned down 5/16 bolts to the size I needed.
I have also taken Lee push thrus and rebored them to the size needed and then made a new punch the right size. A friend in WA. state needed one for his 338 and wanted to be able to seat gas checks. That was accomplished by changing the entrance taper a little. I did the same to get a .332 sizer for my 8x56R bullets. While a lathe is nice for these projects a drill and good grinder will do the same. It just takes a little longer. Orygun

BruceB...I checked on the other die and it's gone out of the old die box. I can't imagine another use for it.

Still, this is a good project and either myself or Orygun Mark will give you any help that we can on it as we've already done it and it works fine./beagle

I'd be in for a group buy. I like the idea of useing the Lyman nut on the bottom, but think it would be stronger if there was a sholder inside the die for the sizer to rest against. Maybe the shell holder rod could have a threaded end so different size bases could be put on for different bullets??

I contacted Lee about this. I hope I didn't step on anybody's toes. I'll post what they reply.

Thanks for all the replies!

At this late point, I'm used to the fact that usually by the time I can come up with some reasonable idea, someone else has been way ahead of me. It's great to read of your experiences and experiments, believe me.

So....if modifying an existing die (of which I have a surplus number on hand, thanks) is it necessary to anneal it, and if so, how do we go about the process?

It occurs to me that some RCBS expander dies had aluminum bodies. That would make a very easy conversion, I suspect.

Lar, thanks for taking the initiative and contacting Lee. I'll be very curious to hear what they say.

Regards from BruceB (aka Bren Mk1)

BruceB.....don't go to all that trouble. Take some 1" diameter round and have it bored for .700". Thread 7/8 X 14 all the way excpt for a 3/8" X 1" section. This will hold the setscrews. Don't have to be hard as the die bodies are.

Run it in from the bottom and use a standard lock ring on top to set it where you want it.

In fact, you might be able to use one of the Lyman 7/8 X 14 adapters that comes with the #55 measure or Trueline Jr. press and upen up the inside with a drill. We're not talking high strength, close tolerance work here.

Then use Orygun Mark's idea of the Lee shell holder for the pushrods. You only need about 3 sizes of rods. They'll work on different diamters.

This is the easiest now that we've been through it./beagle

BruceB,
If I had an email addy I could send you jpegs of what they look like. Orygun

All.... Now, this isn't a new idea and we don't have a patent on it.

Most of the ideas that are published on these forums are free to the users for the betterment of the cast shooting hobby and personal use.

I did that with the "beagling" process.

Orygun Mark and I spent several months of correspondence, some $$ and a lot of his time and mine developing and testing this concept. If the board members want to make up a set for their own use, I have no heartburn about it and encourage it to further cast bullet shooting.

I would take exception to Lee/Hanned placing a unit in production using this idea.

l'd also not be appreciative of seeing an article in the Fouling Shot under someone's name desribing this or the "beagling" process.

Now, again, no flames intended here but let's keep these ideas we have here among the casting community and keep them out of the hands of the business men./beagle

I agree with Beagle as I do this machine work for relaxation. My job is done with all sorts of people looking over my shoulders and when I can go home a do projects at my own pace it is nice. This setup was designed for those people who don't want to buy a bunch of nose first dies made by Lee. This design doesn't allow lubing but it could easily as I have made an alum prototype of one for lubing. Have to use a hard lube and heater however. I share knowledge with the hope casting people will use it for their own use and not to make money. Orygun

beagle, Orygun Mark,

I'm probably the wrong person to make this post, BUT!

Your most recent comments make a great deal of sense to me. I do not disagree with your sentiments and at the same time I think this idea is simply GREAT! Please do not misunderstand the intent of this post.

My only concern for the project is that many people, such as myself, do not have the equipment, material, or (especially) the talent required to make our own "Nose First Sizer Adapters" without outside help.

Shucks, patent the idea and sell them, or don't patent it and sell them. I would LOVE to be a customer. Otherwise, I don't know where to go from here.

Ideas anyone?

Regards,

I got a reply from Dillon, they said thanks but not us, try CH4D. I haven't heard form Lee yet, but I'll stop.

I think the Lee RGB dies could be bought cheap, $14.95 for rifle 2 die sets, then modify them. I have a friend that owns a spring shop, I'm sure I could get him to put the dies in his furnace when he does a run and just leave them in until it cools down. They should be dead soft then. ??? That would be about $8 a die. Or use some 1" cold rolled.

If you can find them big die bodies they are really simple to make. Basic tools are a drill motor, hacksaw, tap and die set, and some imagination.
Otherwise get in good with a machinist who reloads and likes to make things. Making reloading parts one at a time is time consuming.
Orygun

Maybe you guys are not the average, but the average shooter and caster does not have the tools (even handtools) and know how to make one of these gizmos. Unless somebody makes then and puts them in the market place, then the idea is of no use to the greater casting community. It just remains a thing to be enjoyed by the few who can make one of these things for themselves. I am one of those folks with no mechanical ability and do not paying somebody for something I need and can't make myself.

I got a reply from LEE.

Mr. Larsen,

I brought your idea to Mr. Lee's attention, but unfortunately there just
isn't enough wall thickness in a 7/8-14 die. We measured a Lyman bullet
sizing die, and it measured about .720 on the outside diameter. The minor
diameter of a 7/8 thread is .798 inch, which only leaves about .039 inch
wall thickness per side. It might be possible, but we respectfully decline
your request.

Thank you for considering Lee Precision.

Lar45....Reference Lee.....Bull.cough.shit!

It's possible and done and I got one and so has OM.

There is absolutely no pressure on the die except upward thrust and .039" is plenty to hold what we're putting on it. If it cracks...what the hell. Long as it still screws into the press all right. We're not building the space shuttle here.

You guys that want one, take a Lyman 7/8 X 14 adapter that's used for adapting 310 dies to a regular press and have someone open it to take the sizer dies, drill and tap for two set screws and go on happily about your nose first sizing.

Lee's too busy trying to make a bullet mould that works right now to take on anything as sophisticated as opening a 7/4 x 14 TPI die body./beagle

I hit the Gun Barn the other day and picked up an assortment of odd sizer dies to play with for cheap. I need a new bottle of O2 before I can soften them, then I'll see if I can make a few. I tried one in the lathe last night and it mostly just got pollished with a carbide bit.

It also occurs to me that some presses, like the Rockchucker, have a larger-diameter bushing already installed to receive the 7/8x14 dies.

The size escapes me just now, but making a bushing of this larger diameter to hold the lube-sizer die would surely remove any lingering worry about insufficient wall thickness of the new bushing.

Regards from BruceB (aka Bren Mk1)

Ya know, if you follow through with this idea, and add in a lube pump, resevoir, and maybe some lube channels, you could eventually re-invent the Star sizer BD

There has already been a Factory set up like that but I don't remember the maker. I thought it was RCBS but wasn't able to find any reference to it, A friend of mine around about 1980 bought a bunch of old reloading stuff from an old guy who had quit reloading and shooting. The bullet was placed on the sizing die and pushed down through it and into a catch can. Sized and lubed all at once. Wish I could remember the name of it! derf

Done that! It works great!!!

You don't need to secure the die inside the holder, I made mine an interference fit on the o-ring, that and the lube on the outside hold it in place.

Make the push rod as close as possible to the bullet dia. otherwise you will get a lip form around the bullet base.

Derf..You friend probably had an old Belding and Mull tool. It was a simple body that attached to the bench with two screws. Into that body screwed a simple sizing die with a punch. A bullet was placed nose down in the die and with the punch/rod pushed through the die into a can or something beneath the bench. It was simplicity itself.

Just an idea on the push rod, why not fill an appropriate case with lead and use it? You alread have a shellholder you wouldn't need to modify and a little wobble might allow the bullet to center itself.

That is very possible Charger, I was just starting to cast r/b for us and knew virtually nothing about reloading. What I do remember is him having trouble aligning the bullet to the grease groove applicaters and I thought that the bullets went in butt first(but you are probably right). I thought at the time it was a neat set up,and still do. derf

Beagle -

>>>In fact, you might be able to use one of the Lyman 7/8 X 14 adapters that comes with the #55 measure or Trueline Jr. press and upen up the inside with a drill. We're not talking high strength, close tolerance work here.

Just did one. Works great, pleanty of metal except a little thin for the set screw. I'll try a 7/8-14 cap screw next - with the nut setup as the fixture to hold it in the lathe.

The aluminum body RCBS de-capping expander dies also work good. It leaves a step inside for the shell holder to stop against and an aluminum lock ring D&T'd for 6-32 and drilled through they die body and then just add a setscrew so it just holds the die in place. Orygun

Tim...figured that would work. Might try one of the 310 die lock rings and drill on through and lock the die in place with a longer screw. Think they're 6-32s.

Now, make a push rod from a 3/16" diameter bolt and turn one end to drop in a shell holder primer hole and turn the head to the right diameter or slightly under and you're in business./beagle

Beagle -
Agree with you on the ring working for the base for the setscrew. But considering the costs and the short length of the adaptor, I think I'll start with some of the reloading dies I've got lying around. AND, come to think of it, single dies go for almost nothing at gun shows.

Thanks,
Tim K

Beagle, why does it have to be a set screw? If the bolt is exposed where the set screw would go, why not cut two opposing slots and slide a spring wire clip over it so the clip would depress against the groove in the die through the slot. All it's doing is holding it from falling out, eh? Up pressure is the die bottom (now top since it's turned over) against the die, right? Of course, if the die groove will not be in the right place then this won't work. sundog

Beagle, back to the top. Did you see my previous comment about an alternative to using a set screw? sundog