I had a S&W .38 stainless follow me home from the gun show this weekend. What shall I feed it?

I gave it some full wadcutters. It seemed to like those quite well, but they are real powder puffs.

I never seriously played with the caliber.

I have the Ideal #357446 to play with.

What's your favorites?

Ric,
Good luck on the 357446. The front bands are undersized on every mould I have of this #. I like the 357443, 358250, 360271, and 358477 in 38 cases. I don't have a S & W in 38 or 357 but have shot the above bullets in a 2" Taurus 85, 2" Taurus Ultra-lite, 3" Rossi, 3.25" SS Rossi, 10" T/C, 6.5" RBH and a Rossi carbine with good results. Then there is the RCBS 38-158 and 38-150KT. I use Unique and Bullseye mostly for my 38 Spl loads. Orygun

Try 4-4.5gr Tite Group behind RCBS 158gr cowboy bullet or Lee copy of it. Very, very accurate in every .38 or .357 I've shot it in. If you want some to try let me know, I keep a lot of those cast up for our bowling pin shoot and hunter pistol NRA. Believe it or not that pop load will take a wood pin off the table with ease.

George D

Waksupi, I had to go back to an old Lyman manual to identify the 357466. This is the 1958 cast bullet manual and the 357466 is shown as the most popular bullet for use in the .357 mag. 160 gr. SWC with 2 lube grooves and a crimping groove. Is this what you have? Anyway, it looks like a great bullet design for all around use in the .36 caliber guns. I use an RCBS 150 gr. SWC for all around use only because that was what was available 25 years ago. .38 special data is all over the place, but I will mention a couple of things that I have found over the years. All of the fast pistol powders like Bullseye, 700X, Win. 231, Accurate number 5, will serve you well up to around 850 fps. If you want to go up to the next level, say 900-1000 fps, I will reccomend Green Dot. For real top end loads in a K-frame Smith or bigger, use Win. 296 or H-110. For top end loads in the heavy frame guns, go through your .38 special brass and sort out the ones with military head stamps. A lot of this stuff is around, made in the 60's and 70's for that war that we don't talk about anymore. It is much heavier and stronger then even the plus P stuff of recent manufacture. Use standard pistol primers for everything until you want to go to the top end loads, and then be carefull, pressure will really jump. I know that the regurgitators will jump in with the Blue Dot and 2400 loads, but they didn't work well over my chronograph. 2400 also has the bad habit of leaving hard kernels of unburnt powder in the chambers of a revolver, hard enough to retard extraction with the next cylinder full.

What model of S&W did you come home with?

Best regards from duke.

two favorite loads are 5 grains of redot and a lee 105swc (very accurate for an ugly bullet) and the lee round flat 150 with either 4 grains of redot or 3.5 grains of vit 310

wakuspi, I have saeco #348 a 150gr dewc, saeco#358 a 160rf cas bullet or lyman 358156 the 215swcgc. IF you want to try any, let me know.
I also have lyman 356242 a 9mm 120rn, this mold would need beagalin to make it big enough.
I can send boolets or loan you the mold.

As far as loads go,any of the above with:

1. 3 to 3.5 BY, RD, GD, Clays, Titegroup, 231

you get the idea.

Calamity Jake

Feed it good old 158swc it should really like them.

Clamity Jake has the right idear. Never met a .38 what wouldn't like wad cutters and a fast powder (I'm partial to 231 although I've been known to use BE). Matter of fact, I cut my relading teeth on .38 Spl, 358311, and BE. My buddy had a set of steel dies, and we were poor enough we couldn't afford case lube, so every third of fourth case (mixed headstamps) we rolled in our hair for enough natural hair oil to keep the case from sticking. A Lee 145 WC single cavity mould was a MAJOR purpose. (Good 'ole days).

But, if'n yer wanting a little more, how about a 358311HP? One big lube groove, plain base and a really neat 'hooler pernt'! Problem is, this boolit doesn't necessarily shoot well in all 357 bores, but if it does, it shoots really swell. Just like most other HP moulds, they're a PIA to make - one at a time and fiddle with the pin each throw. sundog

sundog, I'll take that troublesome HP off your hands, and any other HPs you might have laying around taking up space! As far as the original question, 5 Gr. Unique and the 358429 works for me in almost everything. Tony

[ 10-14-2003, 18:38: Message edited by: AnthonyB ]

Duke, this is a Model 65. Got an excellent deal on it.

Mark - the cavity shows some slight surface rust, so if it doesn't cast large enough on the front bands, I'll enlarge it a bit. I'll try and find out this afternoon if i have time to cast.

Going back into my own ancient history, I once killed a big Arctic wolf one noon-hour between our town and the mine where I worked up in the Northwest Territories.

The revolver was a 6" K-38 with an Elmer Keith Special of 13.0 2400 behind a Lyman 358156. This ran at 1250 fps, chronographed. One round through the shoulders from 40 yards, dead wolf. Yes Duke, it wuz an old-fashioned load, but dead is dead, and that load was wickedly accurate. I fired a whole bunch of them in that K-38, and it never loosened up at all.

These days, I have enough .357s that I don't have to hot-rod the current K-38. I still like the 358156 a lot, but have recently gotten the RCBS 150 PB SWC to do some work with. A 150 at around 1000 fps in a medium-frame .38 Special is a very nice package.

Regards from BruceB (aka Bren Mk1)

My .38 Specials have been remarkably unfussy. Never had a problem with home cast using everything from a 125 TC intended for the 9mm to Lyman 358315.

These days I mostly shoot and strongly reccommend RCBS 38-150-KT and Lyman 358429.

Moving away from full wadcutters..the most accurate bullet I have fired in the 38 special is the old Lyman 358311 RN. I use 5.5/AA5 under the bullet, good loads can be had with Uniq, BE, Clays and many other powders. If you are going to shoot small game, substitute a good SWC. I use the old SAECO/Cramer #12.

Yeah, it is indeed very hard to beat that particular round nose because it is extremely easy to cast with any condition cold or hot mold, and the boolit nose's attitude makes it easy to load and package with extreme speed. It's the only boolit I use when I'm in a hurry to go and blow up "long range" junk. ... felix

boolit I like in .38 Spl. is the ols Lyman #358430, a 195 gr. RN that casts out at 200 gr. for me. I use 3.5 gr. of Unique for about 650 maybe 700 FPS from an S&W M60.
I've used Bruce B.'s #2400 load years ago when I had my first S&W 38/44 Outdoorsman, an "N" framed .38 Spl. I took it on a church group camping trip over a 4th of July campout in the Sierra Nevada Mountains in California back in the late 1950s. It did yeoman service on a 250 pound black bear that decided one of the young ladies camping would make a fine dinner. Two quick shots and one very dead bear. The young lady required roughly 100 stitches. Sadly, the revolver had to go when finances were tight. A few years back, I found another, and that one will never be sold as long as I'm still alive and kicking.
If any of you have never shot one of those early S&W's with the long action, well, you don't know what you're missing.
Paul B.

Ric--

If it's a Model 65, it should be a 357 Magnum. The stainless K-frame 38 Special is a Model 64, which comes in 2", 3", and 4" barrel lengths.

FBI still uses 3" M-65's as an issue option. Not a bad package with the 357's on board, and will light up hillsides at dusk quite effectively if ball powders are used.

Deputy Al, you are most likely correct. There are no markings I can see on the firearm designating model. I know little to nothing about this particular revolver, and was going with what I was told by the seller.
Regardless, I fired some fifty yard shots this morning double action, and it seemed able to find the steel gong with pleasing regularity. I'm going to cast a few bullets from the mold I have in a little bit, and check fit.

Ric--

A little further stainless K-frame info for ya--the M-64 is usually a heavy barrel/fixed sight model in 38 Special, while the 65 is the same deal in 357 Magnum. Check the crane recess area for model number (and likely a suffix, too). The Model 67 is an adjustable-sighted 38 Special, almost always in 4" barrel--the Model 66 is quite well known and is the adjustable-sighted 357 Magnum in 2.5", 4" and 6" barrel lengths. There was also a Model 68--kinda rare--6" adjustable-sighted 38 Special.

The M-64 holds a special place in my heart.....I was obliged to use one to exchange finality with a client in 1981. I am anything but objective when it comes to my fondness for the K-frame S&W's.

Deputy Al - a 64-6 is what it is. Thanks for telling me where to look!

Oregon Mark - I cast some from the Ideal mold I got along with it. The front bands were indeed undersized, so I spent the last couple hours lapping, casting, and measuring, and I believe I have it up to a size it should fit well after several go-rounds.

Hopefully,I can give them a test drive tomorrow.

Calamity Jake - Thanks for the offer, but I will work with what I have at the time. I have access to a good selection of .38 molds I can borrow from a retired police armorer that I got the mold from.

Ric, I like 2.7-3.0 gr Bullseye over any wadcutter as a Grouse/rabbit load. It is usually quiet enough to not spook game too badly. I would "Beagle" the 357446 before playing with bands. That bullet when cast dead soft over 5 gr Unique works in my 38. gianni.

i like 2.7-3.0 gr bullseye loads too but i load handcast 150 gr swc over em.

THE 2ND AMENDMENT PROTECTS US ALL.........

Dippity Al et al: If pushed to choose just one round, the 38 Special would probably win. I won't get into the whys and wherefores, but it is one heck of a versitile and useful pistol round. I have not counted lately, but I probably have a dozen in that configuration. A couple of years ago, and having some cash in my jeans, I bought a new Smith 64. It is as slick a hangun as I have ever owned. I load it with Lyman 358156 HP (1-30) at a full 1,000 fps to duplicate the RCMP load and would never hesitate to stake my life on that pistol and round.

Now, Tony, with all due respect, Sir, NO, you really don't want this mould, even though it's an original.... It's not THAT troublesome that I can find something to shoot it in. HAR! But if you and Waksupi would like a few, I can probably fix you up. Especially since you've got a BUNCH of nice .38 cases. Did you ever take the kids for ice cream? sundog

Chargar, now yer talkin'. 358156 loaded max. And, like you, if forced into having ONLY .38 Spl, I suppose I could live with it, but I'd need a carbine to go along with my pissola. sundog

Here's another vote for Lyman #358156 at +/- 1000 FPS. I have yet to try this class of load in a strong 38 Special and not have it shoot well. These are NOT recommended for J-frame S&Ws or D-frame Colts. I don't run them in my 50 year old Officer's Model Target, either.

For standard pressure loads, I've used Lyman #358477 for years. These two molds are among the first I purchased over 20 years ago. These I run at 850-900 FPS, and are accurate and pleasant to shoot. They are superb on small game.

Rick, My Favorite 38 spl is the Mod 67. I picked it up for next to nothing as a police trade in. I pack it in a Bianchi holster on my jeans belt. Light enough you hardly know its there but heavy enough to hold well. The ammo is also compact enough that I can pour a double handful into my front pockets for a day of woodsloafing, what else. I load the RCBS 150 kt over 5 gr. of Unique for right at 900fps. I have two of these moulds and run them at the same time to try to turn out a pile of bullets. Out of the Mould with my metal they weigh 155 gr. before sizing. We have shot these out of other fixed sight guns and they shoot pretty close to point of aim in all of them. We don't have any big toothy critters around here so these offer all the power needed. They don't tear up a bunch of meat if the game is cottontails but have enough steam to strech out a coyote if needed. On those days when no game is taken, I never git into the truck until I shoot up my supply at stumps dirt clods ect. Had a buddy years ago in the State Water Patrol and this was his issued duty weapon. I know for a fact it was used on some targets not in the line of duty. Some times its pretty lonely on some of those waters and some game weth home with him.

woods

Waksupi,

I have the same model- a 64-6. The seller prob'ly told you that it's a 65 'cuz he rounded up.....

Anyhoo...my 64 has been completely reworked to become my #1 bullseye target shooter- resplendent with bull barrel, custom sights and numbered chambers. With an H&G 150g WC it can circumcise a bog lemming at 50 yards.....no easy fete mind you.....

I found that the H&G WCs are jus' a hair more accurate than the Lyman with 3.3g 231. You're welcome to a bunch to try.......

Regards....

Sundog et. al....We all agree that Ray Thompson's 358156 is an all time favorite bullet. For the life of me, I don't know why Lyman droped the HP version a few years back. Of all the dumb things Lyman has done, that ranks as No. 1 in my book.

I see no need for the solid point version in the 38 special, but the HP will allow a soft alloy to be used without leading. This bullet out of 1-20 will expand like made at 1,000 fps, but in the 38 Special, I use 1-30 just for an edge.

Skeeter Skelton championed this bullet (both solid and HP) loaded over 13.5/2400, seated to crimp in the bottom crimp groove in 38 Special cases. This was his do all load in .357 magnum revolvers and gave an honest 1,200 fps in any revolvers with a 4' bbl or more.

Skeeter started using 38 Special cases as an economy measure and just got stuck in the groove. 358156 when crimped in the bottom groove in Special cases has the exact same powder capacity as the same bullet crimped in the top groove in magnum cases.

This bullet can be pushed 1,400-1,500 fps but I see little reason to do so. I use Skeeters old load (both solid and HP) in both sixguns and my Marlin carbine. In the carbine, this load picks up a couple of hundred fps.

All in all 358156 1-20 (solid and HP) over 13.5/2400 makes a wonderful all purpose load for both 357 mag. sixgun and carbine. Not top end by end means, but very accurate and very deadly.

358156-HP. 1-30 at 1,000 (Unique or 2400)in Special cases makes a dandy field load and defense load 38 Special revolvers.

Ray Thompson did a good days work when he designed that bullet. His 429244 GC in solid or HP is a fine bullet for the 44 spl and mag round as well. The HP version of this bullet in 44 Spl cases at 1,000 fps (8/Unique) is deadly in 44 spl or magnum sixguns. Push this same bullet 1,300 fps and the HP is a deer killer deluxe and the solid works for deer and larger game as well.

These are designs that go back to the 40's but still as useful as the day the first moulds were cut.

Lyman still makes the solid version but the HP are gone. However, a HP tool for your Forester trimmer and you are in bussiness.

At risk of going off-topic, I also like that Lyman #429244. Mine is a four cavity, and it can empty out a casting furnace and create a pile of boolits in no time flat.

These Thompson designs are fine boolits. Lyman briefly had a 100 grain SWC-GC in 32 caliber (#313631, maybe?), and I didn't snag one--none of my 32 revolvers can really make use of the GC, but the boolit looked for all the world like Ray Thompson sketched it out.

I will most likely never use this for hunting or defense carry. What can you tell me about weights and accuracy for full wadcutters? Any of the Lee six holers any good?

Deputy Al,
If you need some of those 313631's to play with let me know. I have that mould and use the bullets in my 1895 Nagants. Works great in them. Orygun

Waksupi, I have the Lee six holers in 148 grain TL DEWC and in a 153 grain RN intended to the .38 Super. I'm happy with both. The WC makes 1" to 1.5" 50 yard groups out of an NEF Handi. The RN runs about 1.5" to 2". I don't pretend to shoot a pistol well enough to get meaningful group sizes out of one.

If production is a concern, you can flat crank out some bullets with the WC TL mould, then run through the Lee pushthrough sizer, and lube with Rooster Jacket.

Waksupi..The full wadcutter is very accurate out to 50 yards. Past that and these little kegs start to get a little unstable. The solid ones can be shot at mid-range (800-900 fps) velocities and make great small game loads. Most folks shoot WC at 650-750 fps. 2.7/BE or 3/231 are standard loads.

Let's talk hollow base WCs. They are the most accurate of the bunch but they produce some special loading concerns. Unless you use a special order long expander, the hollow base can be crushed by the case in the seating process. The special order long expander will reach past the point where the inside of the case starts to thicken toward the head. This can cause the case to expand to a real tight fit in the cylinder.

Factory 38 Special Match ammo is loaded with HBWC but match cases have straight walls almost down to the head. Most folks don't realize there is a difference in the construction between match brass and regular brass. So if you want good results from HBWC buy some match ammo (Federal is good) and save those cases for use with HBWC. The regular solid WCs work just fine in standard 38 Special cases.

If you want to shoot mid-range loads, don't use HBWCs. It is common to blow the skirts off of these bullets and have them left in the barrel when fired too fast.