I'm new on the block, new to handloading and unknowledgeable about cast bullets. What I am is a very experienced hunter of medium to Large game.

Could you please tell me in a few words how effective cast bullets are in respect to killing power, accuracy and general hunting use?

Their lower cost is attractive, but do they really work well?

Well, I did kill a buffalo with one yesterday from a .358 Winchester.

Bear in mind my hunting experience is with short barreled handguns and the occasional muzzleloader. In other words, low velocity loads.

Penetration is awesome, especially with hard cast bullets.

Heart shots with cast bullets are very effective, as you would expect them to be.

While I do not deliberately aim for the liver, I confess there have been times when I hit the liver by mistake, and the results were better than expected. One spike elk immediately lay down and allowed me to walk up to him for the finishing shot. Other liver-shot critters called it quits after about 200 yards.

Lung shots can be disappointing. If it creates bone shrapnel on the way in, or if it hits the aorta, or if the critter just doesn't have a strong will to live, the lung shot may get the job done. But it is entirely possible for a hard cast bullet to zip through the lungs without hitting the aorta, without creating bone shrapnel, and without doing much damage at all. Especially in the upper lung or if only one of the lungs is hit. The animal may even go back to grazing as if it hasn't even been hit. More likely, it will run into the next county! By contrast, hi-velocity jacketed rifle bullets are usually very effective on lung shots, causing massive tissue damage, bleeding, collapse of the lungs, and/or the animal drowns in its own blood.

When I hunt with cast I aim for the heart, not the lungs. If it lands a little high and hits the aorta, it will still work. A little far back in the liver, it will still work but expect to do some tracking. I am not afraid to take shots that require the bullet to punch through heavy bone.

Extra heavy bullets are not required. Within reason, it is not the weight of the bullet or the caliber that matters, but the size of the metplat. Use as big a metplat as will feed reliably and shoot accurately in your gun. Typically 75% of bullet diameter, or more

As Dirty Harry said, "a man's gotta know his limitations." If you respect the limitations of the cast bullet, it is effective for hunting, and when it comes to penetration, it is superior.

My experience has been with the 30-30 loaded to duplicate full power loads. Metal used has been wheel weights with just enough tin added to make casting easy. Fifteen shots and fifteen deer. Most shots have been in the heart or lower lung area. No deer ran more that about 50 yards. Bullet is the Lyman #311291.
I once did an experiment using a bundle of well water-soaked newpapers set out at 100 yards. I shot two federal factory 170 gr. bullets and and two of the Lyman #311291 bullets into the wet paper. Upon recovery, the cast bullets looked just about the same as the jacketed bullets and weighed only slightly less.
I've just started doing sosme serious experimentation using cast bullets in the .358 Win. and .35 Whelen using an alloy of 10 pounds wheelweights, one pound linotype, 1/3 cup chilled bird shot and a three foot piece of 95/5 percent lead free solder. Bullet run about 2 BHN numbers higher than straight wheel weights (14 BHN vs 12 BHN) and can be heat treated to 32 BHN should that be needed.
I think a 250 or 280 gr. lead bullet at about 2300 FPS, give or take a few FPS, should be a great elk doer-inner. The 200 or 250 gr. bullet at 2000 FPS in the .358 should be just fine on deer, with the 250 gr. working on close range shots on elk as well.
Just trying to find out which loads shoot the best. I do personally believe that cartridges should be of 35 caliber or larger with a fairly flat point (meplat) for maximum smack down effect.
I also believe that shot placement is a lot more critical with cast bullets, and one should be able to pass up shots that would be taken with jacketed bullets.
If being able to sneak up on a game animal is what turns you on, and the willingness to turn down the risky shots is no problem, then go for it. Me? I'd rather take a doe, spike or forked horn deer that I've snuck up upon that any B&C trophy that I sniped at 400 yards or so. Now if I was able to sneak up on that B&C buck, well that's a whole nuther deal.
Paul B.
Paul B.

Paul B, your work with the .358 is right up my alley. I shoot a .348 Winchester, 250 grain FN at 2300 fps. As you know, the .358 and .348 are kissun kussins.

I gather from what you fellows are telling me, that in comparison to jacketed bullets, cast bullets do not break-up on soft tissue easily; and that one should aim for solid zones on your game. This could be neck, spine, head or head-on sternum shots if concerned with avoiding meat damage? Did I read this right?

I always work at close range, and utilize iron sights, with shots rarely over 150 yds. My usual quarry is Moose, but like to have a bullet that will if neccessary, handle a Grizzly that has taken over my Moose kill.

Do you think I can purchase a cast bullet that will meet my criteria, or do I have to get into casting? Got my hands full learning handloading right now. This interest on my part after all these years, stems from the increasing restrictions being imposed upon Canadian hunters. I want to maintain independence as long as possible.

At the risk of hijacking the thread, I'd like to pose the question, "What is the ideal hunting rifle/caliber for cast bullets?". I know it's not the swede for sure. I'm torn between the larger straight walled cases; .444 and 45-70, and something like a .32 win or one of the .38s. Part of the problem is rifle availability. The .32 win and .444s are primarily in lever guns. I've always been a bolt gun fan myself. I've had much better luck coming up with an accurate rifle using a bolt action. On the other hand, it's certainly easier to get the big meplat in a .44 or .45. I'm thinking I'd need knock down power enough for deer in the 200 lb plus range, or Moose, out to 200 yards with good accuracy. I've pretty much stayed with condoms in my hunting rifles as my shots tend to be longer and I'm not a big fan of tracking wounded animals if possible. I think the .444 would do the job but I've never tried a lever gun that I could confidently hit stuff out to 200 yards with. What do you guys think? BD

BD, my money goes to a lever action in 38 caliber or better shooting a "standard" weight boolit with the largest possible flat nose. I don't have much need to shoot at 200, but all my levers can hit a pie plate at that range. You have to see an RCBS 45-405 HP hit a deer to believe the reaction - they fall down, right now. My recommendation would be a lever 45-70 as a universal CB hunter. You could also build a light 458 Mag and load it down to 45-70 levels if you want a bolt action.

I've used cast bullets in 30/30, 30.06 and 35 Rem to kill deer. I also use cast bullets & RB's in 45 and 50 cal BP rifles to kill deer. Haven't lost a deer yet and none hve gone over 3 feet when shot. I use FN or HP cast bullets. Bullet placement is everything. I wish we could get more deer tags a year out here so I could test more cast bullets out. My normal hunting loads are in the 1800-2000 FPS range. I'm with Paul B on taking a Doe or spike as They just seem to taste better and are a little more tender. Orygun

Well I guess I should probably buy a .444 lever gun and work with it. I'd have to do something about the factory sights most likely as I've never felt comfortable with the "buck horn" arrangements I've seen on lever guns. I say .444 as I've got a drawer full of .44 molds. I've seen a few .44 marlins with Balard rifling, but they all had short barrels. I think something about 22" should be about right? BD

Brush Buster, You asked about CB accuracy. The short answer is 1 m.o.a. or less if your rifle is capable of that with jacketed bullets; if you've remove all Cu fouling from the bore; if the CB fits your bore; if the design of the CB is appropriate; if you've chosen the right powder and charge; (There are limits on how fast you can drive CB's.) if you're a good shot; etc. Hope this helps, ...Maven

I have had good experiences with cast boolits on deer,moose and elk. I have never been able to recover a cast boolit that has downed game. All have passed completely thru the animals. Cartridges used, have been .44 mag(in handguns) on deer, and .35 Whelen on moose and elk.--Shuz

Paul..did you use the 311291 (30-30) in a tubular magazine and did you have any worries about the RN bullet being against a primer?

BD..You said ideal didn't you. IMHO the ideal cast bullet hunting round is between 35 and 40 caliber with a bullet weight of 250-350 grains. So lets just split the difference and say the .375 Whelen is my ideal.

Paul - Take a look at 311440. I think you will like it for 30/30 work as well.

I'll chime in with my experiences hunting with cast. Most of the deer I have killed have been taken with a 500 grain LBT bullet at about 1300 fps from a .45-70. I have also killed a few with a 300 grain RCBS .44 bullet fired from a .44 Mag Marlin lever action at about 1700 fps. Finally, I have also used a 12 ga. with round balls at 1200 fps and the Lyman sabot slug at the same speed. I've never recovered a bullet and never have lost a deer that was hit. Funny how things work out like that.

Single shot 45-[you pick the size of the case] if using black powder. If using white powder, 45-70 should get it done. Worked good for the buffalo runners, didn't it? Hmmmm, might need a new rifle after the 700 VS LH in .308.... sundog

I've been asked several questions; hope I remember 'em all.
As to the ideal alloy, guess a lot would depend on the caliber of the rifle in questtion. I think you's need a bit harder metal for say a 30 caliber than you would for a 45-70, for example.
I think that if I was going to hunt exclusively with cast bullets, I'd go with the 35 to 38 caliber with as wide a meplat as possible, although Lyman's #3589/358009 bullet is a rather bluff round nose that has a superb reputation at 280 gr. Again, hardness of the bullet would have to be determined on what size game I was hunting. Farly soft for deer, and harder for elk or moose. If there was the possibility of serious bear problems, I would use an alloy appropriate for bruin, regardless of what I was hunting.
It was asked if I worried about possible problems using Lyman #311291 in tubular magazines, due to the nose touching the primer. In a word? No. This bullet was designed in 1905 for use in the 30-40 Krag and later was popular for the 30-06. people using good old M94 winchesters and M93 marlins, later M36 and 336, used that bullet for years before Lyman #31141/#311041 came out. FWIOW, I've never gotten #31141 to shoot worth a damn in any of my 30 caliber rifles, although I keep trying. Hoewver, is one is concerned, use a nose punch that is flat and place a small flat on the bullet's nose. In the Lyman forst edition cast bullet handbook, there is no mention of potential problems with the bullet's nose setting off other rounds in the magazine.
Paul B.

The least powerful of the cast bullets that are used for hunting is the 6.5mm bullet.

Out of the Swedish Mausers it is limited to 1,650 - 1,800 fps because of the high rifling twist rate used in that particular rifle.

Other rifles/cases (with slower twist rates) can go 1,800 fps or a bit better before overspinning the bullet.

Still, using the 170 grain flat meplat 6.5 Swede bullet (from Midsouth's Custom Mold Page) out of the Swedish Mauser you can poke a half inch hole all the way through a deer using a quartering shot.

If you use a soft air-dropped slug you will get some expansion at that speed, which will increase that half inch hole to more like a 3/4 inch hole for some of the hole depth, but you will still go all the way through eastern sized deer even on a quartering shot.

The long 6.5 bullet is a penetrating fool, if nothing else.

All the other cast bullet calibers can do this good or better, so this is not to say the 6.5 cast bullet is "superior" to the others for hunting -- it isn't.

It is the hunting equivalent to a moderate speed 30-30 though as it carries the EXACT same meplat size and same 170 grain bullet weight and it runs in the same general cast bullet speed range.

It could be better if it could be driven faster, but in the high twist rate barrels of the Swedish Mausers this just isn't going to happen. So, if you hunt with confidence with your 30-30 you can do the same things with the 170 grain 6.5 Swede bullet at 1,650 -1,800 fps.

It will be quiet, and it won't kick at all. It will reach out longer distances effectively than a 30-30 as it has a better BC because all that weight is packed in a smaller diameter package.

Still, since we all have bigger calibers we use them when we go hunting. Go figure. I use an 8mm Mauser and a 250 grain bullet at roughly the same speeds because the meplat is a good bit bigger and the slug is a lot heavier. Duh, I'd be silly not to.

Still, I would not hesitate to take a deer with a 6.5 cast bullet if I was sure of a good shot. Waksupi has used the caliber and can attest to what it can do on larger-bodied deer than I will ever see in NC.

Oldfeller

[ 11-25-2003, 09:32: Message edited by: Oldfeller ]

Yea, verily.

The 6.5 with cast will definitely do the job on big whitetails, just loafing along. I never recovered a bullet from a kill. Wound channels did run from 3/4" to 1" or so, depending on what parts were being traversed at the time. No blood shot meat.

This morning, I saw probably forty elk, and took a shot with my .358 Win. Can't report the results, because somehow I m-m-m-m-missed. There. I said it. I suspect a tree ran in front of me as I squeezed the trigger.

Should this thread end here, I want you all to know that I got a lot of good advice and appreciate it.

I want to be ready next Fall, and there's a lot to learn. I'll be firing my first handloads late in my life, and striving for that perfect clean kill.

Is it my imagination, or are the deer getting smarter than they used to be?

Yeah, Ric--I had the same problem with whitetail bucks this year. Trees run in front of them! I think it is because of the reduced logging in the National Forests. Trees have nowhere to go but in front of our boolits!--Shuz

Because of the scarcity of hunters and the lack natural preditors (other than occasional packs of domestic dogs) I think there are a whole lot more deer running the woods than there were in decades past.

The deer have to compete harder against each other for the available natural food sources. Each individual deer actually gets less to eat, so he tends to stay smaller (and possibly not live as long, either).

Take the same deer, move them to a different area of the country with better food sources and within a generation or so of low population pressure living they would be the larger size you are remembering.

I had 4 skinny mini-deer last night feeding in my south 40 (where they are a protected species as long as I want peace and domestic tranquility, anyway). These were 3 generations of does and a first year buck just sitting out there eating on what little grass there was back there.

I really think living a bit longer and having some better food sources are the only thing that could make these deer bigger in the body.

I know they looked bigger when I still kept a garden back there, I think I was subsidizing them with my corn and peas and squash.

Oldfeller

as far as accuracy goes my friend shot silhouettes exclusively with cast bullets in his .444 marlin custom chambered tc contender.he didn't miss em very often....

Where I live the deer population is only about 2 or 3 animals per square mile. Years of clearcutting, and the cutting of the wintering areas, have left the northern half of the state with large areas of habitat very suitable for bears and moose, but poor for deer. The animals are larger, (took a 190 lb buck last week), but fewer. It seems that my shots tend to be farther as well. The last three deer I've killed have all been between 150 and 200 yard shots. The combination of open cut areas and very thick stands or young softwoods makes a close approach still hunting pretty tough. This is really true on crunchy frozen ground with no snow like we have this year.

If I drive 40 miles south the deer population is 20 to 30 animals per square mile and the hunting is in more typical mixed growth woods and farmland. Unfortunately the extra driving makes daily hunting farther south interfer with work, leaving only saturdays when the woods are full of yahoos. BD

Shuz- I find I may have made a plain old fashioned miss yesterday. I shot a buck today where I knew the sight picture was good. The hit was WAY high and right. So, rather than doing bench work in the morning, I'll take out the old Swede 96 for the last few days of season. Fortunately, we're getting a bit of fresh snow. There are so many elk tracks in the area I'm hunting, it's hard to sort out a fresh set to follow. Looks like a cattle feed lot. Hopefully wapiti steaks to go along with the deer and buffalo by Sunday evening.

Ric--

Sounds like a great week to me--enjoy, sir!

One cast bullet caliber I have come to truly appreciate is the 9.3 x 62 Mauser, fired in my CZ-550 bolt rifle. My original idea was to use mid-range cast loads for recreational shooting at paper, and have the capability to load "hammers" with 286 grain Nosler Partitions.

Some preliminary work with Mountain Molds' 270 grain flatnose bullets indicate very fine accuracy past 2000 FPS. I now have a scope on board this rifle, and will sort out its accuracy potential now that the rifle can see better. Yeah, the rifle......age does bad things to eyesight.

The midrange loads (18.0 grains/2400) run about 1600 FPS and cut ragged 5-shot chrysanthemums at 50 yards. One such group spanned about .800" outside diameter--that would equate to under .5" center to center. Hence the scope, to really see what the rifle will do

This bullet has a .290" meplat, and I suspect it will hit with authority and penetrate like nobody's business. I suspect the mid-range loads would suffice for deer, and if I can develop a load at 2000 FPS with reliable accuracy the cast bullet might be all the rifle needs.

The rifle was under 450 bucks out the door. Need I say that I am happy with its acquisition?

Love those cast bullets in my Marlin Guide Gun in 45-70. I prefer the 350 grain Flat point Gas Check, as others have said bullet expansion is very little, my bullets are casted hard, so shoulder shots on any game will be the most effective. Meat loss is less than jacket bullets due too less scrapnel created. I also use cast bullets in my Muzzleloader, I use the LBT HardCaast by Performance Cast Bullets with a sabot. I have yet to recover a bullet from game.

Ric. Just out of curiosity, what is the load you are using in your .358? I just acquired a few more .35 cal. molds and have been playing with the Whelen, but I want to get started on my .358 as well. I figured my primary bullets would be either the RCBS 200 gr. FN or the 250 gr. SP.
I also have the David Mos 270 gr. bullet but I'm thinking it's too long for a .358, as is the Lyman #3589 which I just found a couple of weeks ago. I have to figure out how to make the gas check shank a bit larger and neither the Lyman or Hornady checks will stay on. Super glue maybe???
Paul B.

For hunting, I've been using the Bator 250(277)gr. bullet. The powder is 41 gr. WC852(F). Primer is Winchester magnum, and shot shell buffer for a slightly compressed load. I believe velocity on this load is right on 2100 fps, without looking it up.
I thought I was having problems with a short throat with this rifle, until I used a bullet right from the mold to check OAL last week. It chambered when seated out considerably. I was puzzled. Finally, it seeped into my mind that the bullets were bumping up slightly in the lubrisizer.
So now I will be starting over on the load development again this winter. I'll have Dan get me a mold made to fit the throat properly as dropped from the mold, hopefully.

I thought gold nuggets were a rarity? It seems that spent CB's are priceless, if you can find them! Well, it will be nice to avoid losing meat, just as long as I don't knock down that cow moose on the other side of the big guy!

I carefully slugged my .348 barrel the other day in preparation for fitting my first C.B.'s. What I got was a repeated reading of .345, does this make sense, and am I correct in then placing a .347 diameter as the correct bullet size?

Cast bullet effectiveness? That is the title to this treatise isn't? He-he, that got me to thinking a little about what has been discussed by the brethren in this thread.....which seems to have gone to 'my favorite bullet'. Nothing wrong with that, but to digress back to the opening line, 'cast bullet effectiveness' allow me to comment for just a moment or three.

I think a few things ought to be considered in regards to a hunting bullet (as I believe the original question pertained to hunting more or less). I can only assume brother Brushbuster already has a rifle he intends to use CB's in, unless he is prepared to buy a rifle with such ideas in mind. IF he has a gun, then whatever caliber it is chambered in will cause the bullet selection to be narrowed down, first thing. Let's assume it's a .30 bore of some description. There are so many good designs available for this caliber (calibre for you Canucks) that calling on one bullet to do it all is a tough call. hunting accuracy and target accuracy are two different things and to choose a bullet design just because it pokes nice tight bugholes in paper is a mistake. But, you can sometimes get both accuracy and killing effect from the same bullet and once such beast is the Lyman 311407. This is a FN Loverin design that shoots great, weighs about 175-180 grains and features a wide nose for shocking effect. Another good one is the RCBS 180 FN. These bullets will work in anything except the 30 carbine and other small case rounds. The 180 grain weight gives lots of penetration should you decide to hunt something beyond a whitetail, yet isn't so heavy that you are restricted to low velocities in cases like the 30-30. Cast of good old wheelweights, a cast bullet will expand reasonably well on soft skinned critters, yet be hard enough to break bone and stay together.

IF, I were to choose a rifle solely for cast bullet hunting and the ranges were 150 yards and less, it would be the 45-70, hands down. This baby has it all and my thanks to beagle for making me a convert a few years back. Should I want a 30 caliber cast rifle, it'd be a 30-30. The case capacity is perfect, the long neck just right and it can be deadly accurate and also allows maximum cast bullet velocities with full house loads. Sure there are a dozen more in between and all are good.....never forget the 35 remington.

Used on game, cast bullets work well within their parameters. Remember they are not high speed projectiles and so, you give up substantial amounts of hydrostatic shocking power, don't expect instantaneous BlamFlops (blam goes the gun, flop goes the critter) like a HV jacketed round will provide. Tracjectories are higher due to lower speeds...better learn your gun/load before stretching long shots using cast bullets. And lastly, have faith that a cast bullet will work and make good shots.

Choose a reasonable design for the task at hand, don't ask more than it can deliver and be a marksman. Effectiveness is entirely relevent to applying these disciplines.

Based on my limited expirience I would recommend anyone shooting game animals try to break the shoulders. I've seen too many "heart shot" deer run for miles even though the deer was now missing a leg, attempted neck shots that resulted in jaws being blown off, lung shots that turned into gut shots and of course, my favorite, the "long range, got a 300 Remchester supershort lazerrifle with a 6-32 power scope so I can take that 600 yard shot even though I have no idea where the bullet goes at that range" shot. If the deer's feet ain't stickin straight up in the air after the shot, ol'lard azz figgers he missed, probably, and thats a long darn way to walk to see if he hit it.

If you hit the shoulder it'll probably break the deer down, especially with cast, and then you can finish it off. Seems much more humane to me.

Thanks brother Jumptrap; that was a concise and thoughful thread. Yes, hunting is the primary impetus for my questions. I have only two rifles that I plan to put CB's through, and these are the .348 and .35 Rem. My rifle buying days are over!

In both calibres it is the heavy cast bullets that I plan on using (250-200 respectively) and my quarry is usually Moose and large Muley's within the 150 yard range. The M-71 especially, seems to suit a cast bullet, and that's my focus at this time. It's my intention to purchase some professionally cast bullets initially and then educate myself on how they shoot and kill.

The .348 calibre as you all know is not an easy one to acquire components for. Casting bullets for it seems to be a logical next step. There's also a mystique to this rifle, and CB's only add to it!

This thread may have wandered a little but has helped a lot, and I'm more confident about making the move to cast after a lifetime of factory made cartridges and jacketed bullets.

I look forward to asking more thought provoking questions and applying my new-found knowledge.

In view of the popularity of the .45-70 and Marlin 1895, it seems like someone's missing an opportunity by not reintroducing the M71 and .348.

An interesting thread!
Have one of those .444 1-38" twisted 22" barelled Marlins. It's about the most reliable gun I've ever owned next to my Model-12 that my Dad left me. I think I'd opt for one of those .45-70's if I had it to do over. The Marlin might not be as good at longer ranges I'm thinking like the .45-70. It's great out to 150 yds tested on hogs tho.

I'd like to try a 348...but then again I slobbered over the re-pro '86's like a hound in heat, but just didn't have the coins to drop on one...be the same scenario with a 71.

molds for the 348 appear on ebay occassionaly, keep a sharp eye and scarf them up...they're not too common.

Jumptrap, I got me one of those 86's. A carbine model. Although it's not the deluxe model I was lucky in that the buttstock is all fiddle back. Shoots real nice too. Glad I got it.

Joe

seems as if you must be lucky to get one with some grain.....the grade 1's I looked at on the auction sites, all had the damned ugliest/plain grade wood for such a fine rifle. You'd think for what they get for a grade 1, you'd be entitled to a nice stock/forearm with just a little figure! Enjoy.