I thought I might start this one on a new thread.

How deep are the tumble-lube grooves?

I'm wondering if getting a .312 boolit and sizing it to .309 or .310 will smear the grooves off?

Put me down for 1 (.309-.312).
Sean

That one also looks right to me. Should be a good 1600 - 1700 fps shooter with WW alloy.

I thought the idea of a tumble lube in a 6 cavity was to make lots of boolits that didn't need sized, just lubed with liquid alox and shot?

Hi All! It even looks good to me! ( That statement should scare all of you!)


The long groove diamter/short nose should shoot well if it falls from the mold at the right size.


Wouldn't the longer 'full sized body' put lube where it is needed- Or would the longer 'full sized body' need more lube? If the first is true, then this design may get by with 1 'lubing' , whereas something shorter may need 2 coats. And yes, I would prefere to shoot it as cast. I say make your calculations and 'shoot' ( pun intended) for .310!

If it turns out .3085 to .311- hurrah! If it turns out .312 to .314 -hurrah & we'll use it in ( some of) the fat .30's.

I also like the shorter nose. It MIGHT not feed as well but the design sure looks good. The only change I would suggest is to add a bevel base. But it seems I am in the minority. When we all agree, I'm in. Dale

Looks good to me. Count me in.

FWIW:


http://www.hunt101.com/img/170196.jpg

My tumble lube grooves were just an estimation. Trk's pic is a more accurate representation.
unless there are any major issues, I'm thinking that this is the one that we will go with.

My thought is that we will give it a few days to see if anything else needs to change, then I can start collecting checks. We will run that for a couple of weeks to get all the orders in, then put it in to LEE and I won't have to keep calling to add another 10 or 15 molds. The $41 on the 358-180 seemed to work pretty well so I'm thinking that this one will be $41 also.

Count me in on this one. These moulds are too good to pass up on. I would think my contender would love it. But I would add that I'm not to crazy about the bevel base. Never had much luck with 'em.

Me too. I vote flat base, no bevel. Bevels work fine for seating boolits in unflared cases, but don't seem
to do too well as they exit the muzzle. A bevel isn't all that noticable in pistols, but (for me, anyway) really
degrades accuracy in rifles. IMO, of course.

Hi All!
I have a question. I usually size bullets to just over bore diameter.... How would this bullet- assume it casts at.312- shoot unsized in a .308 barrel? How about .314? Are there any particular problems ..or would every application be a law unto itself? ( Is the throat actually the deciding factor?)

I understand the Marlin microgrooves need a bullet this size ( .310+) to shoot well. Can anyone expand on this?

I also assume that there would be tolerances in the production of these. Has anyone tested 4 or 5 molds to see what the differences are? My point is, that in the setup procedure at the factory, will one mold be .002 larger/bigger than any other?

Would anyone care to share experiences about alloys and a non gascheck bullet like this one.... especially in relationship to pressure/size/velocity/accuracy/leading.

It still remains a 'plinker' to me but others that I trust say that 1500-1600fps is the velocity for accuracy. Can anyone speak to this?

Sorry for all the foolish questions!

Thanks in advance, Dale

Hi All!

In regards to bevel or flat base, I want what works! My desires,if wrong, should be rejected for the good of this project.

Having said this, I got 3 samples of bullets to examine.Yes, they are all Lee and all pistol bullets. A .357 tumble lube, a .357 flatnose ( the newer one) and a .45 truncated cone. All three have a very slight bevel base. I think my 311410 .30 cal. also has a slight bevel base. ( I just went and looked at 2 more Lee molds-both .45 and they have a slight bevel base)

My point? I guess I really don't have a truly flat base to compare to. Do the truly flat bases cast well and fill out the outer edge of the base well? Wouldn't an imperfection ( such as not being filled completely out in a small spot) let gases leak in that spot and 'tip' the bullet?

Please don't think of my words as an argument- I speak not to offend or promote my ideas.... I'm just asking. Dale

P.S. I wonder if I misunderstand- are we talking about 2 ( or 3) different things? The bevel in the last trk drawing on 6/5/04 would be enough for me. Is this a problem, accuracy wise or any other way, on this bullet? I really want the best design. And I would be willing to go with the flat base if that is it. Help me here, Dale

Dale, as I'm sure you know, a .308 bore (land top to land top) might have a .310 or even
.312 groove diameter. Marlins are notorious for a large groove diameter, and if the boolit
doesn't fill that empty space, leading will result.

The main limitation on boolit diameter that will shoot is throat diameter; the barrel will swage
just about any size boolit to its own size, and not cause undue pressures while doing so. But,
you need to be able to chamber a round to be able to shoot it, so you need a boolit as close
to throat size as possible, one that will obturate a fraction to fill the space and get the slug
started down the barrel properly and without leading.

I'd guess that this is called a "plinker," not because of the velocity it can be shot at, but
because of the fast and easy production -- hopefully no sizing, and liquid alox lube. The shape
of the nose should lend itself to us being able to just vary seating depth to allow snug fitting
to almost any throat, and let the barrel do the sizing. We should be able to make a bunch of these
in very little time, and see if we can't make strewn beer cans an endangered species. I know
I'll be disappointed if we can't get 1500 - 1600 fps from these boolits.

Previous custom molds from Lee have been very good about mold-to-mold tolerances. They put
a new cutter in their CNC machines when they start a run, and since we only get 25-50 molds cut,
the cutters don't get any appreciable wear during the course of a custom run. Being computer
controlled, the machine will cut every cavity the same. During their production runs of a thousand
molds, the cutters may wear enough to make a measurable difference from first to last mold, but
that isn't likely for our small batch of custom cuts.

Dale, those imperfections at the base are one of the main reasons I prefer a square,
rather than a flat base. With a square base, I can see at a glance if there's a ding at
the point where lead meets steel. A bevel hides that ding. With my worn-out eyeballs,
every little bit helps.

A more esoteric point is what happens when the boolit base exits the muzzle. The gas
pressure needs to release all around the circumference of the base at exactly the same
time. With a bevel, gas begins to escape through the groove cuts a nanosecond earlier
than from where the lead is contacting the lands. If the bevel isn't exactly perfect,
that earlier "jetting" of muzzle gas will cause the boolit to tip or wobble as it leaves the
muzzle.

At least, that's my story, and I'm sticking to it. <GGG>

I'm interested in non gascheck .312 dia or larger. See no problem with running them thru Lee sizer of smaller dia.

My point of view here is that this one is more likely to be used in a Lever gun, '94 30-30 and '99 .300 Savage, so what ever feeds best is where I vote.

Plain (flat please, not beveled) base means for me I'll keep the velocity down and really use it for "Plinking" purposes, as intended. JMHO

I got up and looked. Not a vestige of a bevel base on my Lyman 311410. No bevels on my Lee 457-325-RF, 457-405 HP, or 459-405 HB.

And I'd much prefer no bevel on this one, either.

hmmm.... I got my 311410 bullets out and looked and they are beveled. SO the only thing I can think of is that I am using the wrong term. ( or I have a different mold, or your mold has had the top machined down to eliminate the beveled part)

If the bullet was standing on it's base- nose up.....the lowest outside edge is at a 45 degree angle to the flat surface it is standing on. This is a bevel to me. ( I have got into these regional term differences before- some are very different.)

This is what I refer to as 'beveled base' because the edge is beveled.

Trk's drawing shows this bevel exactly as I describe on the bullets/molds mentioned. He shows the angle as 45 degrees and the thickness as ".0100".

hmmmmm.... what gives? Dale

lar45, DEHillyer: I think I'm seeing some cross-talk between threads here (or maybe it's just me). As I understand it, we are now talking about TWO designs:

One is the .30 TUMBLE-LUBE "PLINKER" at a nominal 0.310" (per Tim's drawing posted here 6/5/04/09:26AM; Hunt 101 jpg 170196), with a very slight base bevel, designed for fast, easy casting and lubing from a 6-cavity mould.

THe other - which grew out of DEH's original idea - is a general-purpose "FAT THIRTY", to cast 0.315" minimum for our various "oversize" military and other rifles. As shown by lar45's 6/2/04/08:27 AM post, it currently shows three "normal" lube grooves, a crimp groove and a gas check base. This also looks good for a 6-cavity mould, and conventional lube-sizing (or as-cast, if diameter comes out OK for a particular rifle).

Both presently are in the 160-170 gr. range, with 0.200" meplats; both are subject to some further evolution as others chime in.

I AM NOT complaining! I definitely want the "FAT THIRTY" for myself. I'll wait on the ".30 TUMBLE-LUBE" to see how it shakes out, as I've got a bunch of other moulds in this size range; but it should also be a "hot" seller (and I'll probably end up with one of these, too).

But I can see a lot of confusion arising - and a nightmare for whoever decides to deal with Lee on either or both - if the two designs aren't kept on fresh, separate threads, and ordered separately.

This is REAL exciting times for this veteran caster; my deepest thanks to all involved!!!

floodgate

My #311410 is dead square at the base, and the mould was bought new 30 years ago from the old stock of a dealer closing out. It's probably 40 years old or more.



What we are seeing is Lyman's nasty habit of changing a design without changing the model number.

No cast boolit should have a beveled base (from many years of experience). A very slight rounding of the edges of square, full diameter base, is indeed OK, but the "rounding" must be very consistent for all boolits in a batch and those should be shot as a batch, not necessairly in one sitting. Gas checks are almost always somewhat rounded after seating, so keep that in mind as the amount of rounding and how it should look, if any rounding at all, on a ready-to-shoot plain base boolit. ... felix

[url="http://www.hunt101.com/?p=170871&c=500&z=1"][/url]

or: http://www.hunt101.com/img/170871-big.jpg

Felix - good to hear from you. 'hope all is well. Above is version without the chamfer (bevel base).

So how come the H&G 38 wadcutters do so well in BB?

Hi All!

More foolish questions!

What is the difference in accuracy between the 2?

Isn't the flat base with it's 90 degree edge more likely to be damaged in storage, handling and seating? ( This edge is more 'exposed' and less supported.)( I hope the moderator doesn't hear me talking like this! LOL)

I had a 45 rcbs mold with a flat base. It shot wonderful! But it cast the edge in question poorly- a high rate of rejects. Was it my casting ability or?

I'll buy a mold ( or 3) either way. But we are talking high rates of production, tumble lubing where the edges may get 'thrown' together, fast loading ( compared to match ammo) and a plinker bullet.

This is such a great forum! It is so nice to talk with all you experienced casters. If I offend in any way, I mean it not that way. Dale

There seems to be much more interest or talk on the 30 tumble lube plinker, so that will be the first one to be done probably. there seems to be more convinceing arguments for the flat base. Thanks for the constructive comments. Any other details that might need changeing or attention? Thanks TRK for the quick update on the drawing.

hmmm.... I take that as 'time to move on'-

I'm still in but (I'm saying this with a smile on my face ) "I reserve the right to be the first to say "I told you so."" Dale


( Hey, I could be wrong ,too!)

Are you about ready to start a new thread for us to "sign up" to purchase?

Thanks a LOT for doing this. I've got moulds in the above and below 160 grain so this will fit in real well.

Lars,
Looks real good to me, put me down for one,,,,,,. And I'll re-issue a 'hands-up' for any surplus C358-180.
And since you seem to be the one able, capable, and GOOD at organising and communicating with Lee, and the motley crew on this board, Can they do 25cal moulds?????? Guessing here that this boolit,,the 311-160 Plain Base in a Tumble Lube configuration, if scaled down to a 25 cal would be just the ticket for the 25-20, mebbe a checked version circa the 90gr mark?? And YES! you'd need another gun, {;o).
Mind you, you could go for a bolt action in somepin like a 257 Roberts,,,, or a 25-06, or a TC barrel in 256 WinMag, now there's a fun cartridge!!!
Cheers All!
R*2
Whatcha' think trk? What would somepin' like that in 25cal look like in CAD??? Wonderfull drawings!

trk-
A very good looking bullet! The body length from base to crimp groove is greater than the 30-30 neck length. If you took out 1 tumble lube repeat and put that length in the nose it would be about the right body length. If this is to be used as a tumble lube bullet, the previous drawing with the slight bevel would reduce damage to the base and reduce any finning that would occur. LEE will cut these closer than -0.000" to +0.003", you just have to talk to them a little more. Oldfeller got them to cut within 0.000" to 0.001" on critical dimensions which would be the nose and body diameters. All other dimensions could fall within LEE's specs then.

>The body length from base to crimp groove is greater than the 30-30 neck length. If you took out 1 tumble lube repeat and put that length in the nose it would be about the right body length.<

And or add a good portion of that deleted tumble lube repeat to the front drive band and call it good .

Alot of leveraction 30-30's wont take a .302" nose let alone a .311" for about .1" to .15" before they wont chamber. I want this thing to fit without forceing it in. It is a plinker which will kill a whitetail at 1500 fps.

Russel, PM sent.

Tim, short barreled BE shooting at 50 feet - 50 yards (offhand accuracy) does not seem to be too much difference one way or another, bevel or no bevel. But, the boolits still have to be good and square at the compression exit ring to win 50 yard matches. Grumble has it right that for much higher exit forces, the flatness has to be right on for the boolit to fly true enough at 100 yards for most applications. If serious shooting is contemplated, then the gas checked version at anything above 1600 is a must, or shooting at any velocity with a scoped gun where every smack of accuracy is important for expectations. The boolit contemplated should be for open sights, offhand mainly, and it will do just fine for any target large enough at just about at any range. ... felix

[ The boolit contemplated should be for open sights, offhand mainly, and it will do just fine for any target large enough at just about at any range. ... felix

---

Felix,
Sounds real good to me, can't shoot any better than that anyway, {;o).
LTNS! Hope you're well, and your words of wisdom tempered with experience are highly valued here.
Cheers!
R*2

What if you took out 1 tumble lube repeat and left it out? What would the weight be?

A plinker, to me, is a lighter weight bullet anyway. Used to improve offhand shooting, teach the kids, etc. Shot for fun and enjoyment. 6 cavity to cast a great number. tumble lube to throw out a step at the bench. and yes, beveled to aid in loading great numbers

This isn't a long range bullet, IMHO. It hasn't got the BC.( Does anyone know the BC? flat nose and all those tumble lube grooves to create drag.) And you can't push HARD without a gas check. Yes, you could lob ( is that a word?) it a quite a way. But other designs are better at long range.

I'll try to check my Lyman book to see if anything resembles this. We could then interpolate/guess trajectories and energies.

Dale

Dale, it sounds like what you're looking for is the Lee C308-113F.

It has a gas check instead of a bevel base, but it will work the same as a bevel base in
the reloading process. And for slower speeds, like <1500 fps, Liquid alox works very well
on this particular boolit. The light weight reduces recoil, even in fairly stiff loads, to almost
nothing. I use it in my truck gun 30-30 as a coyote-getter, and it really does a nice job.

Sadly, it isn't available in a standard six-holer from Lee, but the last special run of these
went quickly. You might want to make another special run?