Felix

I've been learning from your posts for several years and have noticed that you are the only person I know of that has mentioned technical aspects of powders......

I'd like to know more about single base verses double base, stick verses ball verses flake and exactly how the differences affect velocity, pressure etc.....

What causes powders with nearly the same buring rate (H335, AA2230, WW748) to behave differently?

Would you please either tell me where to find the info.....or, better yet, could you explain it to us all?

I'll be sending you an e-mail with a specific situation I'd like your opinion about.....

Thanks, Mark

[ 09-12-2003, 03:31: Message edited by: GonHuntin ]

Whew I feel better after reading this post. When I first read Powder question for Felix,I thought he had gotten an Avon route---glad to learn it was gun powder.

Felix, If you would like to print a paper or two on powder and lube characteristics I would gladly pay 5$ for a download and I am sure others would also. I know that you recently retired and like most of us don't lack for projects but please consider this one. Regards, Gianni.

OK, Mark and John, a story or two coming up. Mark sent an email, and I will answer that one too in an inclusive way.

I have been working on getting UNUM PROVIDENT to continue paying my LTD (long term disability). They quit paying about exactly half way through their contractural obligations. Upon some extensive research via countless phone calls, I am finding I am not being singled out. They are hiding behind the federal ERISA law that says they can't be held liable for more than their total obligation when you get this kind of insurance through an employer. This means no pain and suffering and lawyer fees can possibly be awarded. So, this means to you guys who are paying LTD through your company, quit doing so. After quitting the policy at work, you can continue the same privately using the same carrier. It will cost you a lot more monthly, but you will open them up to paying pain and suffering if they quit paying upon a claim. ... felix

Back to the top......

Just in case Felix forgot

[ 09-16-2003, 23:49: Message edited by: GonHuntin ]

Ok, Mark, back to the top. Letting you know, I have to be in the mood to do this. There's lots to say, as evidenced by some of the topics yesterday, and extended today. ... felix

Just making sure you didn't forget.

Back on top. ... felix

OK, I'll start a little early on my powder expose here and now. The early smokeless rifle powders simply had too much nitro(glycerin) without commensurate deterrent remaining at that point in time where/when the nitro burn becomes benificial in producing productive gasses. The end result was nitrided and oxidized barrels (before their time) as evidenced by premature cracks, which were/are caused by boolits vibrating hardened metal. The brits saw this first in their 303s after WWI, but nobody knew the whats, whens, wheres. So, in the late 30's or so, they (Nobel) cut the nitro percentage to be no more than about 10 percent and the problems started going away. Today we have deterrents that work, but most of them cheap enough cause other problems like gumming up the bores. Triple base powders are the real answer, but they are presently too expensive for the gain in velocity (in small arms). It's OK to have lots of nitro in pistol applications, because there is not enough total powder to get barrels that hot. So, to replicate the HiVels in totum, we have a long wait. ... felix

Back to the top.....Felix???

Ok, Mark..

What causes powders with nearly the same buring rate (H335, AA2230, WW748, BLC2) to behave differently?

The burning rate of these powders specifically would be modified by the ball size, and how much microscipic air is within each ball, intentional or otherwise. We know it is impossible to make a batch behave exactly the same as the last, so attempts are made by rolling the granules making a flatter ball, changing the deterrents, etc. By the time we get the powder, sometimes 50 years after the fact, the powder characteristics could have changed even further from a manufactured intent. Ball powder was "invented" because there was so much single base powder left over from WWII. Taking this powder, and melting it down with solvents, and re-shaping it chemically and mechanically made the first ball powder. The speed intended was to make the 308W perform equal to the 30-06 with the same surplus bullets. The powder speed required was slightly faster than the 4895s, but having the ability to give that extra, delayed push. A double base powder formulation was therefore required. The ball form was chosen because it was cheap to make once the nitroglycerin had been introduced. ... felix

How can we determine which powders are single base and which are double?

What are the pros and cons of each.....which one works best where?

Mark, in general, you want to use double base powders when you NEED the extra velocity potential. Double base powders are great for hunting pistol applications because the cases are too small to hold much powder, and you need more energy for less powder. More powder of any type means more energy, more velocity. And, in general, stay with single base powders whenever accuracy is met and the velocity is just OK for the objective. The barrel throats will last much, much longer in your pet grandfather's rifle, for example. For competition guns it makes no difference because barrel replacement is of no concern. Accuracy with the highest velocity makes all of the difference in condom matches. ... felix

Mark, back in the late 1800's DuPont decided to place emphasis on single base powders and on black powder. When nitroglycerin was determined to be an excellent addition, making a double base powder, the folks there decided to spin off the manufacturing of it. This company became known as Hercules. To this day, the latter company (Alliant) makes double base powders only, unless by contract otherwise. The Dupont group (IMR) makes only single base powders, with a couple of exceptions, namely 700 and 800 because of the commercial shotgun shell market. The "X" is applied to these numbers as suffix to exemplify the "extra" boost afforded by the appended nitro. It's considerably cheaper to make a cut-sheet powder, than a tubular variety. Dupont (IMR) was forced to cut costs for a good bulk powder in order to compete with Hercules (Alliant). Winchester (St. Marks) got into the powder market only because of the heavy bulk demand by the shotshell outfits and the military. Their stuff is double base ball, unless otherwise contracted for a different formulation. ... felix

Mark, cut flake powder is usually double base because during manufacture, floating the powder sheet on water is a good way to make the sheet flat. Cutting the sheet up according to speed requirements is quite easy, because speed trials can be made before the whole sheet is cut up into some little square size to make the burn speed requirement. It's relative difficult to make tube powder consistent, because the density of powder in liquid has to be quite consistent before extrusion. It's comparatively costly to adjust the extrusion dies for different burn speeds, not to mention coming up to a previous canister burn speed. Powder mixing is a no-no, unless the density of the individual granules is the same between the various lots to be mixed. Olin/St.Marks/Winchester tried this with their older number 630 to make a specific speed between BlueDot and 2400. They mixed a fast ball with a slow ball, and depending on transportation systems, the speed the handloader got could be quite variable between the various cans. I still have some of this powder, and it is extremely useful when that speed range is required to make max velocity out of a small case, like a 380 auto case. ... felix

Felix

This is the kind of info I am looking for! Keep it coming!

Thanks!

Because ball powder was made for military applications, which means machine gun operations, the intent for a deterrent was not only to regulate the burn speed, but to provide a heat insulator, a lube of sorts if you will. Tons of powder, now in the surplus market, was made using calcium sulfate mixed in with graphite. The sulfate part is a great deterrent and is still used today, slowing down reaction and ignition speeds to a very desirable extent. However, the calcium part had too much viscosity for a long string of shooting without cleaning the barrel every so often. It would cake up under the pressure of condoms rubbing against the barrel. For cast, using a good wax based lube, that caking up won't occur which makes this kind of deterrent a good thing, and will surely help keep the barrel void of lead. But, when a powder is clean burning to begin with, say a modern powder using fairly pure materials for making the chemistry for the single base portion, the basic nitrocelluous part, then the need for such a cleaning action deterrent in not warrented. Potassium sulfate is used nowadays as a deterrent additive. But, the cost is significantly higher than calcium sulfate, say a 100 times on the commercial market. ... felix

I might add that it was the calcium sulfate used in the early ball powders that was THE culprit, or should I say one of them, that was the cause of M16 not functioning properly in the early day of it's appearance in Vietnam. Improper brass heat treating by Frankfor Arsensal was another.

Joe

Felix,Real nice thread.Great info that is hard to find anywhere else.Thanks.
Jim

Ideally, you want to pick a powder that fills the case to the base of, or slightly below the boolit without compression. In general, the powder speed should provide 2400 fps with the LEAD boolit weight of choice. That is the choice powder speed to begin development with. Now, if the shoulder hurts after a session or two, then it is time to consider a smaller case, or drop the charge down and use a filler. What you are after in terms of long term accuracy is an ES that does not change in value between 2 percent either way, plus or minus, about the powder weight chosen. This is critical for a load to be valid in all weather conditions, assuming the load was developed a reasonable temp to begin with. ... felix

Naturally, the above is talking about cases that can do 2400 and above, and the filler addendum, if any, refers to straight wall, or weakly tapered cases. Anyway, the ES should be stable in any cartridge, condom or lead, especially when long range is considered an application. Bouncing the powder around the mean value by 2 percent should not change accuracy or the ES for a stable load. ... felix

Notice the ping get ping when your car is out of time? This is equivalent to peak pressure, which must be rounded down enough to prevent such an occurance. The ping is actually metal flying around in the bore, bouncing around the walls. The rounding off of the peak pressure must additionally be big and wide enough to prevent the "fried egg" sound as well, which is called pre-detonation in cars. Two ways to do this in guns, even though we can't hear either effect: change the primer, or change the powder speed, or both. Unfortunately, there is no easy way to tell anyone how to do this. This is one of those osmosis things that comes with lots of experimentation with minimizing ES's and finding the smoothest part of the pressure curve as described above. ... felix

Ok, now let's talk about gasolines. There are only two kinds made, that which can be mixed with ethenol, or that which cannot. The refineries are now owned by independents for the most part and make the base stuff at 86 or 87 octane, depending on feed stock mostly. Gasoline these days is shipped by barge or by pipeline into warehouses, usually owned by other independents as well. The corner gas station may be an independent, and will order gas anyway he feels will sell. The major gas station by contract has to purchase additives according to the brand stated on the signs, but only so many gallons per month. The rest of the month, that gas station can, and some do, will operate as the independents. Now, these additives are equivelent to deterrents, and in just about all non-leaded gasolines, these deterrents also have additional energy. Raw gasoline is basically equivalent to pistol powder, and to make rifle powder out of it, additives are a necessity. So, when a gas station orders a gas truck full, he must specifiy which additive set. The truck driver has a set of keys that he uses when drawing the base gas, and these keys, which ones and how many, are predetermined by the various majors. The pumping station at the depot mixes the gas automatically for the trucker. ... felix

Sometimes, but not often, the trucker puts the gas in the truck and screws up when he puts it into the tank at the destined gas station. I have noticed 93 octane in 87 tanks, and vice versa over 45 years of buying gas. So, if you get a tank of gas that does not perform right, either too good or not up to snuff, consider this kind of happening. If it happens in the negative direction more than once at that same gas station, then you know to avoid that place like the plague. The gas station owner is cheating. ... felix

Felix, Interesting. In Montana most of our gas is refined and then piped to distribution stations that the fuel trucks fill from. Pre 1973 the different octanes were seperated with a pipeline pig, per thosre in the know. Currently they are left to seperate by specific gravity and so octanes mix. Also a mix of diesel and gasoline previously burned as waste is now mixed in at a very small rate and sold with bulk. It is a miracle that engines run as good as they do. Gianni.

Great stuff felix thank you!

Goatlips

Hello Felix-

I have followed many of your posts and read many of your posts in the "Shooters" archives as relates to bullet lube. Many thanks for sharing!

I'd like to ask a question if I may - as to your background/credentials that contribute to your knowledge of bullet lubes and their properties. I am earnestly seeking to expand my own understanding of this art/science and would appreciate any recommendations as to additional reading materials that may help me to gain a like understanding.

On another subject - re: lube tuning: Do you have a specific or prescribed test methodology you employ when evaluating lube performance? What indicators would you be watching for and in what relative priority? Any assistance you could offer to shed additional light would be most welcome.

Best regards-

Sky C.

Leftoverdj

No I really don't. I know alot of them were made in haste to get to the war but there were a whole bunch of things that contributed to making the rifle look alot worse the it was. The soldiers were told that this new wonder rifle (at the time of it's introduction) didn't need to be cleaned as often as the rifle it was replacing, partly due to it's new unique gas system. Actually nothing could have been further from the truth. My goodness a gas system that actually bleeds off gas back to the action itself would tell anyone with a what ever mechanical mind they had that there's going to be alot of carbon and whatever else the powder could deposit in it. The secretary of defense wanted to cut corners and not have the bore or chamber chromed. So here we had improper powder being use and I might add that the ammo was loaded with a few different powders, the brass at first wasn't annealed correctly,and the soldiers at first weren't instructed on cleaning the weapon alone giving cleaning materials. If you look at the current rifle their really aren't many significate modifications done to it compared to the original. The basic parts are virtually unchanged. So they did what, made a heavier barrel, put easier adjustable sights on it, put a forward assist on it (which very few other military rifle have) they may have widen the extractor claw, not sure about that though, put protective ribs around the mag release, lengthened the buttstock, changed the front handguards, and changed the flash suppressor. But still the basic action and trigger weren't changed much. The chrome lining came when the war was still going on that wasn't a later improvement. Not sure when chroming the bolt and carrier came along. If the rifle was cleaned properly and the correct good ammo was fired in it, it performed as it was intended. I think that it being a radical change from previous U.S. military rifle not only in appearance but caliber and the few problems of chromed lining, bad ammo, and bad cleaning instructions (which were none at first) let to the dislike of the rifle. The majority of the Vietnam vets that I know liked it.
For it supposely having been such a horrible rifle during Nam it sure has gone on to be one of our longest lasting military weapons.
Joe

No, Sky, I don't scientifically test a lube mix anymore. Mainly because of laziness, but in reality, it made no difference on practical results. Nowadays a lube design is based on osmosis from past results, and I still try to make a lube-for-all purposes which is truly folly. You can obtain designer lubes, but they all have a major downfall somewhere, especially when it comes to cleaning the gun or your hands after lubing. For example, a synthetic lube made for electrical motor bearings. It is made by chaining the ammonia molecule. Can't cut this stuff with any typical solvent. Soft as butter, and won't fly off of a rod going 200,000 rpm in a lab. That means a boolit won't have to have lube grooves. ... felix