I just ordered four jugs of powder one is 5010. Can I use this for 45/70, 458, 416 rigby?

What do you load with 5010?

Thanks ,
Urdubob

As you know, 5010 is a bulky, slow powder which requires a bit of pressure to burn "cleanly;" i.e., with a minimum of unburned powder in the cases & bbl. You can achieve this in bottle-necked cases larger than the 6.5 x 55 Swede by using CB seated into the rifling, mag. primers and either Grex or powdered bran (bran processed in an electric coffee grinder): .3cc to .7cc. In the .45-70 this may be impossible to achieve or to put it another way, you'll have so much unburned powder, dented cases and a fouled action that you'll wish you hadn't tried it. In the .416 Rigby, I haven't a clue. However, you may experiment with a duplex charge, say no more than 5% of 4198 to 95% 5010. Btw, my work with 5010 has been solely with English & metric .30cals. as well as the 8mm Mau., using CB's and either .3cc or .5cc Grex or powdered bran: It works very well in them, but I wouldn't recommend it for the .45-70 at all. Hope this helps, ...Maven

I shot some in my 45-70BFR and shot them across the chrony to see how slow they were going. I now have some powder holes in the display cover!

IMR 7383 is a pretty good booster powder to use with full case loads of IMR 5010 in the middle range (30-06 class of cases) to encourage it to burn more completely.

Both are currently available cheap $4 per pound surplus powders. Both powders really can use a magnum primer to help ignite them better.

Let's talk 8x57 for a moment. You can use IMR 7383 in partial case loads for more moderate fps speeds, but get lackluster accuracy in most of the partial case loadings (yes Jethrow, there are apparently exceptions to this generality and I am glad you found some of them - used a magnum primer to light those partial case loads by any chance?).

Higher loading percentages (up to a full case) begin to behave better, but at a cost of more recoil and fps speeds that begin to go past what hardened lead slugs can take).

Using even more IMR 7383 powder gets up to a more concise and accurate burn pressure range, but at speeds and recoil levels that are uncomfortably high (kicks your shoulder off using heavy 250 grain bullets).

Full case loads of IMR 5010 work at moderate velocities only, but leave granules of powder in the case and in the barrel behind a 250 grain bullet even using a magnum primer. Speeds are still relatively low, and the low pressure IMR 5010 burns incredibly dirty even when lit with a magnum primer.

Cleaning the hardened powder fouling out of the bore after every pure IMR 5010 shooting session is a pain in the butt sort of thing, so you want to try to find a better solution if you can.

You can safely boost a bulk load of IMR 5010 with IMR 7383 to get into those in-between speed ranges above what a case load of IMR 5010 will do (in a very dirty fashion) by itself and below what a nearly full case (accurate) load of IMR 7383 will do (while kicking your shoulder blades off).

It is a case of finding a inexpensive solution to a problem only using the now-available inexpensive bulk powders and a little bit of ingenuity.

Why is it "completely safe" in 8x57? Because you can use a full case load of the IMR 7383 booster powder in an 8x57 case safely. You are just using a sliding scale effect here, sort of a "pressure trombone" by using some IMR 7383 to boost a main loading of IMR 5010 up in speed some while getting it to burn cleaner/better. Varing ratios of the two give a varying result, while remaining completely safe (in the 8x57 case).

Same tricks would work in the larger overbored capacity bottle neck cases (but safety cannot be guaranteed as a full case load of IMR 7383 would be overpressure for most of these cases).

Safety is a nice thing -- but somebody always has to edge out into the potentially unsafe to find that elusive thing called "progress".

I think cleaner burning and lower shot-to-shot fps variation and the ability to tailor your loads for a particular "middle speed" range using cheap surplus powders is a form of mild progress.

============== new subject ===============

I think I've only been caught out posting an out of book load recipe just once on this list (while we were talking about something unrelated, old loading manual listings for .44 magnums and all our past "out of book" past sins we all did on the then new .44 Remington Magnum cartridge as I remember. Since the whole discussion was about past sins, it wasn't out of place).

When posting my "generalities" on mixed loads or any advanced form of loading I do get tired of catching garbage from the "book only" righteous ones -- but I tend to expect that from folks with that mindset. They make no progress themselves, they just endlessly replicate what is already there and their favorite secondary hobby is flinging their righteous rocks, apparently.

There are always folks who want to say "you'll shoot your eye out" or "you'll destroy somebody's bolt doing that" or "LEE can't make or cut a precision mold". So let them nay-say, it's their job in life. I do love to hear their actual stories though (when they have one), some are really eye-opening and worth learning from.

I find it mildy amusing to get occasionally slammed from the other side as well, folks who do advanced experimentation and do post actual recipes and who want me to do the same thing. Surprise, some liability exists when posting actual recipes -- I'd like to keep my house for my future retirement if you don't mind.

However, between the two different sets of folks, I do occasionally get tempted to take fishing back up as a main hobby. (Golf is still too expensive and my left shoulder blade still aches too much)

Have you noticed that Buckshot doesn't post here much any more? A notable gun builder and experimenter, Buckshot. A really nice guy.

45 2.1 won't post much either, I wonder why? He's the only person I know that owns and shoots more guns that Buckshot does. Damn fine bullet designer too, BTW -- all "my" bullets were and are his actual CAD designs (did you know that?).

Where is Jumptrap, lately? The father of custom LEE molds won't post much any more it seems. Jump taught me how to deal sucessfully with LEE (thanks, Jump).

hmmmmmm ..... they still read this list occasionally, but they very rarely post any more.

Oldfeller

Burning leaves in the fall. Good starter material.

Mr Oldfeller you forget one thing about 'non book'. There's always a new generation out there who know less than nothing about handloading. You'll note in a previous post I checked to the naysayers on duplexing cause their caution should be heard. In the true-est sense their correct.

But carefully LABELING an activity as "too dam dangerous" IMO is a good idea. Tell the story-- the 'perenced hands listen and apply and build on. Scare the white sheets off for all that can bring is trouble. Naysayers provide a good service-- hopefully scaring the hell otta someone not knowledgeable enough or confient enough in their OWN ability to pull it off.

And it gets the poster of such 'idiocy' off the legal hook. Of course such 'idiocy' has resulted in many an enjoyable hour shooting.

Having lurked the last yrs on cast sites I'm wondering why you don't publish some of your writings? Far ahead of the trash now sitting on the shelves in gun rags.

[ 10-19-2003, 04:44: Message edited by: NO BS ]

Oldfeller, I suppose you can use a case full of 7383 in the 8mm Mau. ('98 action), but my experience with it in both the .243Win. (Ruger #1) and .30-06 (Mod. 70 Win.) suggests otherwise. Now it well may be that my lot of 7383 is faster than yours, but I won't use more than 42.5gr. of it in the .243 (with 80-87gr. jacketed bullets) or more than 52.5gr. in the '06 (with 150-168gr.jacketed bullets). Btw, I couldn't get more than this in either case without bulging the necks so much that the loaded rounds wouldn't chamber. Moreover, pressure signs were very evident in the'06, and this was in cool weather. I can't imagine what would have happened in >75 deg. temps. As for 5010, 47-49gr. works well in the 8mm. Mau. and the .30-06 as well if you use as little as .3cc - .7cc. of grex or powdered bran (with a mag. primer of course) and a heavy CB seated into the rifling. Yes, there's still unburned powder in the bbl., but cases necks are clean, accuracy is good and only ~6 kernels of powder fall from each fired case. Respectfully, ...Maven

In the .270 Winchester with the Lyman 280642 bullet. Fifty grains of 5010-PD and .7cc Grex for a velocity of average 2076 fps and 58 grains for a velocity of average 2375 fps. Accuracy is fair at 100 yards, BUT, it is cheap to shoot!!!BCB