I just recently started casting and have cast some bullets from the Lee mold 358-158-RF. I used pure lead and mixed with solder to get it between 16-1 / 20-1 mix. I purchased the Lee hardness tester and have tested the bullets to a 12.5 BHN.
According to the Lee chart this is strength PSI 17833 and a pressure Max PSI 16050.

My question is this, using this 158 grain bullet in 38 special load in manual with 4.3 grains Alliant Unique is at 920 FPS and 16000 PSI Max load.
But does that mean this lead bullet can not be used in 357 Magnum velocities?

According the Lyman chart WW’s produce a BHN of 9 which is a much less PSI of 11473 Max so this does not make sense to me as of yet. Can you guys enlighten me please?

Simply what do I have to mix to use this bullet at 357 velocities?

Thanks in Advance....!

It depends on how FAST you want to push them. 12.5 BHN "should" be okay at lower 357 mag velocities. This will also depend on your bullet lube and condition of your bore.
My Ruger SBH 44 mag shoots 15 BHN bullets from Leadheads loaded med to warm w/ no problems, but I bore lapped it also.
From what I've seen, 12-16 BHN is pretty standard for all around cast shooting in the normal revolver cartridges.

forget all those math equasions.
if the boolits fit your throats work up your loads till you see a problem.
elmer used 16-1 in his 44 mag and his loads were not wimpy.
i personally have shot 20-1 up to 1200 fps in my 45 colt.
try the unique or 2400 burn range of powders.

I second what lamar said.
Paul B.

Make boolits fit the throats and the faster the powder you use, the harder the boolits should be.
Soft boolits kicked in the butt with a fast powder deform, slump, flare bases, etc and you do not end up with the boolit you made coming out of the barrel.
Soft lead can squirt out of the gap and lead the OUTSIDE of a revolver.
I find about 25 BHN works best with fast powders.
I can shoot 1" groups at 50 yards with light loads in my .44 but as I soften the lead, the groups grow and I get leading.

thank you BFR,
I was getting alot of smoke and the gun getting dusted on the out side of the frame.
I measured the throat of the cylinder with a micrometer to be .358

What happens when you push a lead bullet too fast?

Will it spit the lead back out from the tiny gap between the forcing cone and cylinder? Because I had a factory hard cast 44 round that did that when I shot it.

vinny look here.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/

12.5 BHN seems a bit hard for a Pb boolit, even with the solder/tin added. My Pb boolits are more in the 8 -9 BHN range.

And that's fine for anything mid/low-velocity .38 Special. However, I prefer a bit harder boolit as for most of my .38 Special and .357 cast loads, I like the faster powders. So I add some antimony to my allow by way of chilled magnum shot, along with some tin for proper fillout, then water-drop and then size/lube as soon as the boolits are dry.

I can get up to 1400 fps in my S&W 686 with excellent groups and no leading this way. Likewise, I can cast my 148WC, one lube-groove filled in front of 2.7 gr of Bullseye and make one ragged hole at 25 yards.

If you're new to casting, I'd start with a "midrange" hardness via wheelweights with a little tin added for fillout, and water drop them.

Then as suggested, begin working your loads up in both .38 and .357 and see what you get. You can always load down, but sometimes too light of a load will ALSO result in leading due to imperfect obturation.

i have no idea how hard my cast bullets are but the last ones i shot over a chronograph were 150 gr swcs and were cast from reclaimed bullets from an indoor range bullet trap......... they were right at 1230 fps and i expected my bore to be more leaded up than it was..... that velocity is about all i really want from my 6" mod 27 so i will keep doing as i have been.............

LIFE IS SHORT.....

Just my 2 cents, but think Kieth would have been satisfied with Bh of 12. However, it has been my experiance in both rifle and handgun in 357 that the key is a blt that more than fits the bore. My 94 and my blackhawk both want at least a .3585 blt, with a good hard lube. I like LAR Red and use it for all my cast. The plain base Kieth 358429 (165-170 gr), cast to between 12-15 BH, and a bit oversized for the bore cause no leading in my 357's, and they are running in the 1200 fps range. Not quite as accurate however for me as is the 358158 Thompson GC in and around the same vols. I have a preference for 2400, but will not recommend loads. I do recommend following the manuals and working up.
1Shirt!

The guys are right, bullet fit & lube trump bullet hardness. Make sure the bullets are 0.001" larger than bore size & that the chamber throats are close to bore/groove dia. I've run 25-1 LHP @ 1250fps w/ little to no leading in my 44mags.

The Cast Bullet Assn top shooters, not to be confused with the true mavens of the genre here, suggest a formula for determinging alloy based on pressure obduration (upset). They take the Brinnell Hardness times 1442 and that almost always shows the pressure at which the bullet will fully upset and seal the cylinder/barrel.
IE: Bhn of 10 x1442 = 14,420Psi.

You might try that and see if it holds true.

Rich

It should hold fairly true but it also depends on how hard and fast the powder punches the boolit while still in the cylinder.
Soft boolits do not cause leading, it is what happens to the boolit that does. Violent expansion, slamming into the cone, deforming there and skidding the rifling will be the enemy. Once you skid and open gas channels from wide land and groove marks, gas will cut lead from the sides of the boolit. The rifling marks on the base of the boolit should NEVER be larger then the rifling measurements.
So you need to start soft lead GENTLY.
I made extensive tests with fast powder and as I hardened properly fitted boolits, groups got tighter and tighter until I was shooting 1" groups at 50 yards where before shotgun patterns at 25 yards was common.
If your boolit is too small, don't look to make it softer so it expands to obturate the bore. It does not work and you might as well use the boolits in a slingshot. Fit the boolit first and then work with hardness for the powder you want to use. Bullseye and 231 needs a harder boolit then Unique, etc.
Pressure does no harm, it is WHERE IT IS APPLIED TO THE BOOLIT that you need to look at.
Then you run into other problems with slower powders because you need more case tension on the boolit for a good burn. Seat soft lead in tight brass and you size the boolit, making it too small again.
Soft lead has a very narrow window where it is good, either side of that and boolits need to be made harder.
If you want to shoot soft lead you need to adjust case expansion so as not to size the lead and you need to stay in the window of powder burn.
The problems with soft lead are not worth fooling with.
Make the boolit the right diameter and make them hard. What comes out of the muzzle should be exactly the same as what you cast but with nice rifling marks.
Most of you shoot great with a bullet and any load but how can you expect a dead soft boolit to do the same thing?

bfrshooter, I have a question about using cast bullets in a .30/06. They are 165 gr plain base and I loaded some with 17 gr of 2400 and the group was a shotgun pattern at 25 yds. Some have suggested going to H4895 at about 30 gr or so and some have said go up to about 20 gr of 2400. Any suggestions to get better accuracy? These loads will just be used for informal targets and plinking.

quote:

Originally posted by Robert Duncan:
bfrshooter, I have a question about using cast bullets in a .30/06. They are 165 gr plain base and I loaded some with 17 gr of 2400 and the group was a shotgun pattern at 25 yds. Some have suggested going to H4895 at about 30 gr or so and some have said go up to about 20 gr of 2400. Any suggestions to get better accuracy? These loads will just be used for informal targets and plinking.

The plan base might be your porblem. Lyman list a starting load of 20gr 2400 w/173gr Gas Checked bullet. You bullet diameter should measure .310" for a 30-06. You can not load 4895, you need a gas check bullet for that. You might do better with a very light load of 8gr-700x.

The Cast Bullet Assn Gurus suggest that multiplying your Bhn times 1442 will give you the yield strength in Psi. That, and making a near mechanical fit in rifles for target level accuracy. It has worked for me in several different cartridges over the last twenty-plus years.

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by Robert Duncan:
bfrshooter, I have a question about using cast bullets in a .30/06. They are 165 gr plain base and I loaded some with 17 gr of 2400 and the group was a shotgun pattern at 25 yds. Some have suggested going to H4895 at about 30 gr or so and some have said go up to about 20 gr of 2400. Any suggestions to get better accuracy? These loads will just be used for informal targets and plinking.

That would be a very good load for a gas checked cast bullet. However for a plain based bullet such as yours it is way too much which is obvious. Try 6.5 gr Bullseye with no wad or filler with your bullet.

Larry Gibson

vinnyg---This aint rocket science, so don't try to make it so. Your 4.3 grain load is about mid range---the old book shows max of 5.4. Shoot them--are there issues? If so what? If no issues don't worry. If it aint broke don't fix it. .357 you know 4.3 is safe--it was safe in the .38 special case. Start there and work up--you run into issues-stop. Add wheelweights---they are cheaper than solder.

plain based boolits seem to start having issues around 1400 fps in rifles.
i have pushed softer pistol caliber p/b boolits faster than i have been able to push the smaller diameter p/b boolits in larger cases,
in bbls up to 24".

Robert Duncan, do what Larry Gibson said, i am sure hes been there and done that. Lamar has good advice also for a plain base bullet.

Thanks to all for your replies and suggestions. I have never worked with cast bullets in a rifle and don't really know where to start. I picked up these plain base bullets at a good price, but perhaps this is the wrong product for use in a rifle. Will look for gas checks in the future.

Robert Duncan---Many will disagree, but I now question the use of gas checks. I have shot both my .22's and 6mm's without gas check and have found no loss of accuracy nor any difference in leading.