I did a search on Google and found nothing! Does anyone know of a website or 'phone number. Thanks...BCB

The old 6.5mm Carcanos had gain twist. The old Hopkins and Allen "Minuteman" Kentucky rifles used to offer it as an option. That'a about all I know.

NotRicochet,

That's interesting. I thought those barrels were only offered "after market" so to speak. I really didn't know they came from the factory...Acutally a person I work with was interested in them. I was looking in some of my recent Fouling Shot magazines because I thought I saw this company advertise in them, but I have yet to find and ad. Other information on this concept of rifling is also welocomed. Thanks...BCB

I think the Gain Twist Rifle Barrel Company became Ballard Rifle Co. This was maybe 2-3 years ago. Is that what you're lookinig for? Try the black powder cartridge boards if it is. Or the SHeutzen boards.

I always thought the gain twist was a bad idea as it deforms the bullet more as it goes from the starting rifeling twist to the final twist.

NO BS,

I have always wondered about the gain twist. A friend at work asked if I knew of a website or a 'phone number. Yep, I realize the bullet enters the rifling and the rifling engraves at a certain angle. The angle must change as twist increases. I personally never figured it would work well at all. Yet, I guess they do exist!!! My friend seems to have $$$$$$ to burn and it would be his baby. Always a gimick I suppose? Or maybe they will work with jacketed bullets? Thanks for the replies so far...BCB

Some of the single shot boys shoot gain twist. Those who advocate are adamant. Those who do not are adamant. I have one on a 32-40, recently acquired, and still getting used to. With a properly fitted plain base cast boolit, it does shoot, and very well! The feller what had it before me is a perennial winner, if that says anything. One thing to remember is that a barrel is a swaging device, and if boolits are swaged properly and consistently, there is no reason it should not work. Is gain twist better? Only the individual shooter can make that choice. sundog

sundog,

So if a bullet started in at 1:14 and ended up at 1:6.5 there would only be evidence of one rifling mark on the bullet? I realize that just ‘bout anything can be swaged if enough pressure is applied, but I am trying to picture in my small mind, this bullet going through such radical changes in such a short distance and time! Yet, as I previously mentioned, they sure do exist and function as you just mentioned. Do you think they work better with cast bullets or jacketed bullets?

Back to the original question: Does anyone know of a website or ‘phone number for this outfit. Trp. Bret indicated that he thought it became The Ballard Rifle Company. I went to their website and there was no mention of gain twist. Maybe they don’t do them anymore? I looked through my Handloader Magazines in the advertiser section and couldn’t find them listed either. Also looked in some of my Fouling Shot Magazines. Thought I had seen them advertised in one of these magazines some time in the past. Oh well, thanks to all who replied. I have trouble with “plain” rifling let along something a bit tricky!!! Maybe I'll post on the single shot board or other boards that might apply. Thanks again…BCB

All serious attempts to make the GT work have failed, in terms of accuracy.

If Harry Pope was still alive I think he would have a slight disagreement with that statement. The R Smith gain twist barrel has also won a lot of the matches fired in the International Single Shot Assoc. matches. Both bench and offhand. I think the CBA National was also won one year with a Ron Smith gain twist barrel. mes

BCB, my barrel is a Ron Smith. As mes indicated, Harry Pope was a strong advocate. I am just now starting to do single shot even though I've been shooting almost 50 years (gee, has it been that long?). A feller what works with me says Ron Smith is in Canada, I don't know as I've not ever had dealings with him. What I do know is the quality of the barrel I have is top shelf and shoots it. sundog

<<mes your quite right. Yet--- my statement was geared to the modern day jacketed slug
shooting BR.>>

Since this is a cast bullet board I thought we were talking about cast bullets. Jacketed bullets leave a lot less to chance both in construction and the velocity at which they are shot. The cast bullit record at the single shot matches at Beesons range near Etna Green Indiana for 5 shots at 200 yards is I believe .332 held by two different people. One of them was fired with a Miller DeHass. The man has at least two of them and one has a Ron Smith G T barrel and I think that is the one used for that group.

<< Now--- did Mr Pope but them ALL in one hole at 100 or 200 for that matter? I doubt Harry
could hold a candle to modern equippment for actual group measurements when their ALL
added up.>>

I am sure that Harry put them all into one hole many times but his hole was probably bigger than the hole jacketed bullet shooters make. But again this is a cast bullet board.
Pope did use black powder but he also used duplex loads and straight smokeless loads.
I hope no offense is taken with my remarks as none was intended.
mes

I'm shooting a .450" Metford Muzzle loading target rifle replica, with a gain twist barrel made by Ueli Eichelberger from Switzerland, the twist starts at 1-48" ends 1-18"
This rifle shoots excellent when everything is just right, but seems very sensitive to details.

http://bildbanken.nordiq.net/pic/Blackpowder192814.jpg
Target of 7 competition shoots 100m Prone with sling.

No O-fence taken at all Mes. You were right, and it is a cast bullet forum too.

I for one would like to know exactly how much 'gain' Pope used in his rifle.

My only real contention was gain twist isn't something superior... necessarily. As many have found out it's 'rifle sensitive' per individual case.

More than likely Mr Pope coulda put them in one hole no matter WHAT he shot???

'Nother point. Alot of what's seen in production barrels is varying rates of twist as the machinery wears. The rate of twist needs to be a constant for best results, saying the obvious.

no bs:
I will have to talk to my friend and see just what Popes rifling machine was capable of in twist rates. If and when I find out I will post it on this board. He may also be able to tell me what Pope used as his standard gain twists for each caliber.
I have a R Smith gain twist barrel in .25 cal that goes from 18 inches to 10.5 at muzzle exit. I still have not found a load that I feel would give competitive accuracy but it is getting better as I go up in bullet weight. I think the darn things are very sensitive to bullet length and velocity. mes

Thinking on this a little, it seems to me a very slight gain twist would be beneficial in all situations. Especially when considering what would happen to accuracy if a loss in twist were to occur by accident. Maybe, just maybe, those barrels with a slight gain result in those so-called "hummer" barrels in the BR circuit. This sort of gain would not be intentional, but would occur because the barrel steel became easier to rifle towards the muzzle, allowing less resistance, or spring-back, to occur. To prevent a balloning effect towards the muzzle end, the barrel bar would be thicker at the muzzle end to start with. Again, how much bigger would be an accident. Some barrels shoot, some don't, and some never will no matter how much corrected by any funky method. ... felix

Mes your shooting lead in the 25?

Be interesting to give that gainer a light cleaning and look at the insides with a borescope-- to note any fouling buildup if it's present.

No BS:
I shoot lead in everything I have. Have not shot a reloaded round in 20 years that was not lead except for P Dog loads in the .223 and Hunter Rifle matches. Have not shot a Hunter Rifle match in 8 or 9 years. All I do now is shoot paper for practice and Schuetzen matches.
mes

Bev Pinney of British Columbia won the Cast Bullet Association Grand National Championship at Kansas City, MO, in September, 1998 using a Ron Smith gain twist barrel.

It shot VERY well when clean,but was one of the worst leading barrels I've ever seen. Bev had to clean about every 7 or 8 shots, even in the 10-shot group matches!! Bev used a long, tapered Jones bullet, if I recall correctly.

My own Ron Smith barrel begins at 1 turn in 19.0 inches and ends at about one turn in 10.5 inches. It does not shoot bore-riding-nose cast bullets anywhere near well enough to be competitive, but does shoot 168 gr. jacketed bullets in the 0.2's from its .30-BR chambering. I have always wanted to get a long, tapered, GC bullet made to fit it, but the famous mould makers I have contacted who make moulds for tapered bullets do NOT make them for gas checks.

It may not be true, but there is a story told about H. Pope during his days at Stevens. Seems another senior worker took a dislike to Mr. Pope and once made the comment in his presence to the effect that "Anyone could make better shooting barrels if they were allowed to use gain twist as Mr.Pope is..." This after having watched Mr.Pope shoot some very, very small groups with one of his barrels newly fitted to a Stevens rifle.

Pope, on hearing the remark, took his gain twist barrel off the rifle, cut off the chamber, chambered the OTHER end of the barrel, re-fitted the barrel to the rifle, and shot just as small test groups with the now "degressive" twist.

He then said to the man who made the comment something to the effect of "It is not the craft...it's the craftsman", then supposedly chased the man out of the room with a wrench in upraised hand.

AC

[ 10-13-2003, 11:31: Message edited by: Alberta Canuck ]

Albert, good report.

I am neither an advocate for or against GT bbls. I have only one and only for a short time. It does shoot very well. I shot over a hundred rounds a couple week ago and NO leading. Next time out may be different. I am using FWFL exclusively, and do not have any leading problems in anything.

AC I've read the reverse chambering story about Pope some yrs ago. But I'm not a believer. I could buy a story whereas the man chambered a conventional barrel and shot well but a decreasing spin rate I can't buy. IMO it's like any story that's been passed on from time gone by-- it gets embellished to make it more remarkable.

Who knows... could be though. If you remember Pops's MV's were quite low along with low psi's I suppose alot of things were possible. Still a bullet has to leave the bore with enough spin for stability which seems in question with the reverse chambering notion.

I dunno. One of the 19th century reprints in my library (Greener?) mentions an experiment with a barrel that started out gain twist for 1/3 of its length, then held the faster twist for another 1/3, then DEGRESSIVE twist out to the muzzle. Didn't work very well. evidently, as no more was heard of the idea. floodgate

I assure you guys I don't know either. I am only reporting what little I have seen and some of what I have read.

I like the theory of a gradual gain twist, but suspect the gain in my own Smith barrel may be too extreme. I'd like to have a gain twist barrel (for .30 caliber) which began at about 1 turn in 15" and then ended with 1 turn in 11"...over a distance of maybe 22"...followed by maybe 6" of a consistent 1 turn in 11" to make sure everything was settled down as the bullet left the muzzle. Or possibly a much slower gain over the last 6" or so...like from one in 11" to one in about 10.8" at the muzzle...just enough to maintain the positive pressure on the leading edge of the bullet.

But, most of all, I 'd like to have the money it would probably take to talk some barrel-maker into rifling such a whacko combination...<g>

AC

[ 10-14-2003, 22:38: Message edited by: Alberta Canuck ]

I've been studying bullets shoot out of my muzzleloader 1-48 -> 1-18 twist, bullets shoot into loose snow are virtually undeformed from the impact. the groove marks on the bullets tell the story; the rear part of the bullet shows the true riflig section, the front of the bullets show very wide grove indentations. This means that the bullets actually have less (groove)support in the front of the bullet. This is logical, this must happen. Well, it shoots well, thats what counts.
Maybe I should take some pics and post em here?

Popes turning the barrel around and chambering it at the other end and having it shoot with the same accuracy sounds a bit off. His muzzle loading cartridge barrels not only had a gain twist but also a slight choke towards the muzzle. I believe his non muzzle loading cartridge barrels also had this choke cut or lapped into them. mes

Blackpowder...I know what you are describing. The way I think of it is the bullet comes straight out the case, then it hits the rifling. It wants to go just straight ahead but the rifling is determined to start to spin it. Before the bullet gets stablized in the rifling it sort of skids on the rifling and mainly the front portion of the bullet then it stablizes. This is very noticeable in revolver bullets that are recovered undamaged. The are coming out of the smooth cylinder throat and hitting the forcing cone, by which time they have plenting of speed, so they skip of skid more then a rifle bullet. I have a 45 Long Colt Smith & Wesson with an 8 3/8 inch barrel and I've recovered lead bullets from it that look they they almost skidded all the way around save for a very small amount...but yet this revolver shoots lead bullets amazing well. The harder my lead alloy the less the skidding. This revolver in this caliber does have shallow rifling grooves compared to the same gun in say 44 or 357 magnum.

Joe

Starmetal:
Most of the bullets shot out of Schuetzen rifles have been breech seated. i.e. they are already engraved by the rifling before the case is loaded and fired. Therefore, if they skid the whole length of the bullet would show the effect.
This is quite different than fixed ammo in a pistol or rifle. mes

Mes
Thank you I misread Blackpowders post thinking modern cartridge firearms. My error.

Joe

Mes -

I've been thinking (dangerous) about your comments on Pope's barrels.

Obviously, with his choked muzzle-loading barrels, the bullets must be very slightly undersized as they get closer to the breech...then they expand to obturate the bore as they are fired. I see no obvious reason the same would not happen if the bullets were soft (like 25/1 or 30/1) even if the bullets were fired from the small end of the bore.

It is also possible that Pope's barrels were pretty consistent diameter for most of their length. Plus, cutting a chamber in the end of the barrel would remove about 2-1/2" to 3" of the choked section. Most choked barrels I've shot don't appear to really "choke" until near the end of the bore, though I don't have an air gauge or a really high dollar set of inside mic's to prove it.

Usually, the choke is achieved with the lapping process, not by drilling an angled (tapered) hole which is very much more difficult. So to get a choke, most traditional barrel-makers made the bore as close to the same diameter all the way through as possible. Then when lapping, they would run the lap back and forth at the breech end more than at the muzzle end. That cut away more metal at the breech end. So it is quite possible only the last few inches of Pope's barrels were choked.

Anyway, with soft bullet metal (as was Pope's custom), a well made bore, and a sufficient twist at exit, I really can't see why bullets wouldn't fly well from a well-made decreasing twist barrel. All the rifling does is impart spin. It is the close fit of the barrel to the bullet and the condition of the crown which controls whether the bullet ends up "cocked" at exit. So, if it exits in correct alignment with the axis of the bore, the crown is true, and it is spun enough, it should shoot whether twist is stable, increasing, or decreasing, one would think.

So maybe the story IS true...though of course I don't know for sure. I think where I saw it was in "The Story of Pope's Barrels" though I am not certain of that either...it could also have been in one of Lucian Cary's artricles on Pope.

Best wishes,

AC