Looks like the holes Oldfellers 8MM cuts in my heavy target paper, only a little closer togather then mine.

Pb head

Looks like the holes my Lyman 311041 cut in paper, another reason that I like that bullet better than 311291, besides the flatnosed bullet being more accurate in my guns.
I have an LBT FN bullet for my 32-40 that looks very similar also.

regards,
Graycg

I've got a 270 grain Lyman 375 bullet that makes wadcutter type holes and a couple of 45 caliber bullets that do the same. They are a bit larger.
Jim

Aladin, I have a Hanned (Ed Wosika) die that tapers CB's (fattens nose to .302" and rears to .3095") and flattens the nose into a meplat. Bullets so treated make perfectly round holes such as yours. If you're wondering why anyone would taper CB's, the answer is simple: because they shoot better when they fit the throat & bore. However, Lyman #311644 does this with no additional effort, but it doesn't punch nice, clean holes. ...Maven

Hey Aladin, that looks like a super deer boolit.

Looks like a bullet that was shot backwards, any bullet done that way will cut a full caliber hole.

Hey Aladin (or perhaps Felix?)

Regarding the nose slump at these velocities: Neat! I'd like to try some loads in the 2100fps to 2400fps range.

What lube would you recommend for somebody like me who lacks a lubricator. I presume that I'm limited to the Lee Liquid Alox or pan lubing. I've heard of the felix lube, but I don't know if it can be used for pan lubing (or how to modify the recipe for my rather cool temperatures).

Oh, and one more thing. I'm in northern Sweden, so a winter day is -5 C (23F), and a hot summer day is still only +25 C (77F).

Yeah, I know, but the Swedish women make up for the weather!

jpb

We are all familiar with the thought of "stacking up your unsupported lead like a vertical column" to calculate the CRUSHING FORCE OF ACCELLERATION according to the psi level generated by the powder charge.



We use this to calculate the crushing force pressure generated by the mass of lead "above" the initial bore-wall supported point during the accelleration of the bullet.



Veral covers this lead stacking idea in his Blue Book. I think Richard LEE Sr. has swimming pool pictures of bore ride bullets "stacking down up towards the nose" as well in the NRA Cast Bullet handbook (around page 84).



And right up above we blithely speak of accelleration forces "stacking the bullet nose down into a wadcutter shape" upon firing at 2,100 - 2,400 fps in the conversation above this post.



Admittedly you are talking about air dropped soft slugs above, but don't the same forces exist in the hardened slugs you shoot as well? Hard lead is simply a bit stronger and can resist slumping a bit better, I agree -- but there are mechanical limits to that hardened lead as well.



What would happen if the bullet's ogive nose was approaching 45% of the total length of the bullet? The non-wall supported column of lead (in the center along the axis of the bullet) would be approaching twice as tall as the examples we have been talking about and the "weight" of the non-wall supported lead mass up above the inital wall support point would be that much greater upon firing.



The resulting movement of that unsupported lead column in "stacking down" would be potentially that much greater as well, since there is lots of clear space in an HBC for the lead to move out to fill up as it stacked down.



We are beginning to understand that even our water-dropped hardened WW lead slugs have mechanical strength limits that we cannot exceed with impunity either by firing forces, forces on exiting the muzzle or by pure spin-generated forces (6.5 Swede study work by Buckshot, Sundog, Bruce B and others). Spin an supported slug hard enough, and it wants to "bulge out" or "bend" on you upon exit from the muzzle. Accellerate an unsupported slug hard enough and it wants to "stack down" on you while still inside the barrel.



This point that you raise about "stacking down noses" falls in line with some of this investigation information. There are limits to what lead, even hardened lead, can take.



"<What this was unfired was a 311644 [200 grs otta an 06] which has a meplat of around .12". It was driven with around 53-54 grs of IMR 4350-- the bullets around the BHN of as cast ww alloy or slightly softer. The psi's and accelleration down the bore slumps the bullet nose to a wadcutter flat face... This at psi's of around 42-45K I'd guestimate or 2400 fps+. If that much nose slump could be accomplished at lower speeds and the same or higher psi's I dunno. Or if that's a practical approach for a hunting load- again I dunno. >"



This "nose stacking down" thought has been raised before by Aladin in regards to the noses on some of my bullets when cast water-dropped hard, the 6.5 Swede nose was specifically included in his thoughts as I recall.



The question all this begs is how much this "stack down" or firing slump is going to affect the very long unsupported nose of a .308" HBC projectile according to the thoughts just expressed above.



If the nose stacks down, will it stay straight or could it stack down off to one side just a little bit as it will be spinning up to some pretty good rpms by that point as well?



Oldfeller

"If the nose stacks down, will it stay straight or could it go off to one side just a little bit?

Oldfeller"

I would think the target sez the evidence is for a uniform slumping, given the slug loaded straight into the bore when the hammer drops. 311644 aligns with ease. That loading shot at 82 meters with the F'f [fouler] making most of the dispersion.

Harder the slug the more resistant to slump/compression aka obturation [a miss used term for sure] in a sense. Note the developement of the orange slugs.. which do not obturate using most of the materials used to make their jackets.

I have made heat treated bullets compress, but not how you'd think. The only real noticeable yet minor compression was the area between the check and last driver and the next lube groove forward. If the ride area nose compressed it was very minor. These tests run with a fairly fast powder too-- H335.

So, alignment at firing will be "everything" to keeping the nose slumping centralized and the in-flight balance good?

Oldfeller

"So, alignment at firing will be "everything" to keeping the nose slumping centralized and the in-flight balance good?



Oldfeller"



I dunno, you could try firing some loaded with varying degress of runout and compare them...I guess. These loads were fired in a normal spec'd 06 chamber also, Lee Collet dies and good brass. My point was slumping the bullet going down the bore produces these noses.. if this is applicable to other guns/chambers/what psi levels is the Q.

Seems to me that Dr. Mann (in The Bullet's Flight) did some experimentation of the effects of acceleration on the deformation.

What we need to know is:
1. Does it group at 200 yds and farther?
2. What it looks like out of the bore?
This item is recovery box material.
Do you have access to one?

They should group fairly well, since this is about
what is done with higher velocity paper patch.
Catching it to get a good picture without deforming
it would be very interesting.