I bought a nice 1884 from a friend's dad's estate. I have fired only enough jacketed factory (Remington 405gr sp) rounds to see that it shoots well. It made a two inch 100 yard group using the battle sight.
My goal is to cast some lead bullets and kill a deer this fall.
The mould I bought is an RCBS 405 flat nose. It has a flat base.
I have read that the bores can be somewhat oversize on these rifles. Would the fact that it shoots a tight group without keyholing with the .458 jacketed bullets indicate a bore close to .458? My mould and sizer are .458.
I understand that a really hard alloy will not be my friend with this rifle. I have an unlimited supply of lead pigs used to store isotopes from the nuclear medicine department at the hospital where I work. Mallinkrodt, who ships the isotopes, says these lead jars are 97% lead, 3% antimony. Will this alloy pose a problem? Does the addition of a gas check, which my mould has provision for, make a differance? Do I need to obtain a mould with a hollow base to aid obturation?
My inclination is just to cast some up, shoot them, and see what happens. I just don't want to create a severe leading problem by shooting an undersize bullet, allowing hot gasses past and severely fouling the barrel. Again, will gas checks prevent this?
It's a science project

I use a hollow base 405 grain in my Carbine. I cast 20 to 1 lead to tin. Found it works much better than your typical harder alloys.

I got fantastic accuracy right at point of aim with a Rapine 500 gr Govt boolit at .460" and 3031 powder. Can't remember the load because my friend moved out of state. He killed a pile of deer with it. Boolits were 20 to 1 lead, tin.

Marty,

If your mold casts a bullet for use with a gas check, then by all means use a gas check! Without it there the base will not obturate, and you will get flame cutting past the base. Try a few with that alloy and SPG lube. You may find that a 1 to 20 alloy will perform better with a plain flat base bullet!

Best of luck with it! George

Thanks, guys. I guess to restate the question about the gas checks- I've never been exactly sure what they do. Will it be a substitute for a hollow base, improving obturation?

I would recommend the RCBS 500-grain spitzer cast 20:1, over ~24 grains of AA 5744 and a 1/8" wad of florist foam pushed down over the powder. Push it up pretty tight against the leade and see what it does. Then you can very carefully work up from there, but don't go over 26 grains...

quote:

Originally posted by Marty:
Thanks, guys. I guess to restate the question about the gas checks- I've never been exactly sure what they do. Will it be a substitute for a hollow base, improving obturation?

Assuming you are wanting smokeless powder loads? The RCBS moulded bullet can be made to work though it is no doubt a little undersized. I'd suggest a .459 sizer. GCs are definately a must. The alloy you have is fine as is although the antimony is a "hardener" if the bullets are air cooled they should not come out to hard. When the alloy melts I would not intially flux but would skim off the dross to remove additional antimony. Cast them and measure the "as cast" diameter.

The closer to .460+ you can get the better. If there are .459 or under then seat the GC and lube in the .459 sizer. If they are larger then you are better off using the sizer just enough to crimp the GC on the bullet shank. You can then Lube them with Lee Liquid Alox. I prefer to dip the bullets in the lube instead of tumbling.

Partial size or neck size your cases, reprime, bell the case mouth and then start at 19 gr of SR4759 and work up to 24 gr in 1 gr increments. Use a 3/4 gr dacron filler between the base of the bullet and the powder. The dacron keeps the powder back against the primer and increased ignition efficiency thus increasing accuracy. The combination of the relatively fast burning 4759 and the soft lead bullets should provide very good accuracy in your M1884 TD. The GC will not be a substitute for a HB but will keep the bullet's base square as it does obturate.

Larry Gibson

first off cast and jacketed are not the same thing.
two different worlds ompletely.
lead needs to be big and bore filling.
the gas check will help cover up mistakes.
you miht even want to go up to 461-462 or more

Unless a custom mold is bought, you will be hard pressed to buy a mold over .457"-.458". Using proper soft lead, makes it worse because they will cast smaller then hard alloys.
For a factory mold, Rapine makes the boolit to come out .460" with a soft lead. Good price, great mold and a nice guy to talk to.

You do NOT need a gas checked boolit in the trapdoor. The check does one thing and one thing only. It grabs the rifling at the base to prevent further boolit skid and opening a gas channel. Velocity is too low in the trapdoor to worry about a boolit skid. If the boolit is under size, the check will do ZIP!

Dang, I have to agree with bfr here,



I think you're going to get dismal results with the gas check bullet. With the low pressures you're going to be working with, you want a soft alloy bullet, with a plain, flat base bullet (a hollow base bullet will work too).

Can you slug your bore on your rifle? I use muzzle loader round balls as "slugs" to slug a new rifle I'm casting for. If you can slug it in the throat, and at the muzzle, you can get a better idea of what bore diameters you're working with. If possible, you want it sized to fit the throat.

Who knows, you may have a "good" barrel, one that's either been relined, or replaced by the arsenal. Some of the "shooters" I've seen have had good barrels on them.

If you're going to shoot smokeless from it (uuhhgg), Accurate Arms 5744 is a good place to start. If you're going to shoot black powder from it (say yes!), FFg or "Cartridge" grade from Goex should get you there.

If your throat slugs .458-.459, I could send you some soft cast BP bullets to test in it. Mine are more like 30-1, sized .458 and lubed with SPG for shooting the TRUE powder (black powder). I have some 350's, 390's, and some 500's. I shoot them from my 1886, my Contender, and my buddy's sharps and trapdoor carbines.

Thanks. The science project continues! I've ordered some cerrosafe alloy from Midway to try to get throat and muzzle bore dimensions. I've never done this, but God hates a coward! Until I know just what I'm dealing with, I'll resist the temptation to order another mould.
Slim, your offer is most kind. I'll get in touch once I have the bore dimensions figured out.
5744 is a powder I'm used to working with. I've been casting 416 and 470 bullets for low power practice ammunition, and loading 5744. I've resisted using filler so far, but may need it for the 45-70.
With my brief experiment with factory jacketed bullets, I'm encouraged that I can get this old guy to shoot.

I have made thousands of Cerrosafe castings but always failed to get proper dimensions. I wait 1/2 hour, an hour or more and it seems readings are always larger then what I get with a lead slug.
I only use the stuff now to see what chambers. etc look like.

Had the same problem, get the Lee 405 hollow base mould. It was made for the Trapdoor, the base expands to fill the bore. Also the 500 gr govt style bullet will work as there is more mass to expand and fill the bore. Spence Wolfs book on shooting Trapdoors explains it best.

I have shot several different bullets without a gas check that were made with a gas check designed mold. I've about decided gas checks are a waste of money. Gas cutting? Let me see if I understand this. Escaping gas is going to cut the rifle barrel? The base of recovered cast bullets show no sign of melting. The bullet did not even get hot enough to melt the lube. In a 24" barrel an 1800 fps bullet is in the barrel for 1/900th of a second. Take a wheel weight for example and pass it through a cutting torch flame as fast as you possibly can---you will not come close to doing it in 1/900th of a second---but you will easily be able to do it before it even starts to heat up---certainly no melting. Take a propane torch and hold it to a wheelweight and it will melt---hold same torch to a gun barrel---all day long.

Marty

AA5744 can also be a good powder in TD loads. Start at 26 gr and work up to 29 gr in 1/2 gr increments with that GC'd (you will get better accuracy with them and much less leading if any with the alloy you have. No filler is needed with the AA5744 powder.

Larry Gibson

Marty -- go to the bait shop with your micrometer and find one of those egg shaped lead fishing weights that measure a bit larger than the diameter of your barrel. Then drive it down throught the barrel from the exit end with a bunch of 6" wood dowels that are about the same size as bore. Measure the largest diameter and know you know what size your bore is. Then you can get a sizer that is .001-.002 bigger than that. I have that mold and next time I cast I'll try to measure what those bullets drop out of the mold at because my rifles all measure .4565 so .458 is perfect. On that RCBS mold use the gas check. I've got a Lee 405 grain plain base and you might want to try that too. Everyone says those Lee molds are cheap but that's the point. For $20 you can try one out...........

Art

Won't do you much good, but I use a custom 420gr mould and size to .460. Bought it for my Marlin, before I bought the 1884 Trapdoor. I understand that some trapdoors may be up to .463" dia. Haven't slugged mine, but I use 24gr 5744, card wad on top of the powder, then fill with grits, to where I get about 1/8" compression of the grits when seating the bullet. 2" groups @100yds and IIRC, velocity
is 1,150 fps
If the bullet is undersize in my gun, the column of grits may protect the base of the bullet from gas cutting and keeps accuracy acceptable. Lee makes a 405 and a 450 gr 2 cav mould, but the HB mould is a single but .459" dia.
You could add a little tin, to your alloy for easier fillout when casting. 1 or 2% would be plenty. You don't need a gas check in the TD.

quote:

. No filler is needed with the AA4759 powder.

By larry Gibson
Marty; believe me when I say there is NO SUCH powder as AA4759!
First thing I would do is clean the copper out of the barrel, clean it real good. Second thing is slug it, then pick a mold that will work. You don't need a gas check design for your rifle and IMR SR 4759 will work just fine. Plain wheel weights or softer will work for alloy.

Marty

Swheeler is correct, there is no such powder as AA4759. However looking at my posts in this thread it is obvious I was referring to AA5744 as was mentioned in the first sentence (perhaps swheeler in his exhuberance to catch me at something wrong missed that?). I did make the mistake though and will edit the previous post. Thank you swheeler for bringing the eroor to our attention.

Marty; BTW, while no filler is necessary with AA5744 a filler of dacron (1 - 1 1/2 gr) does help quite a bit. If you want to try AA5744 with a filler then start at 22 gr AA5744 with the dacron filler under your RCBS bullet. and work up in 1 gr increments until accuracy goes (usually in teh 1500 - 1600 fps range).

Larry Gibson

I load for two 1884 Trapdoors. Until I used bullets cast of soft lead (30:1 lead to tin) and measuring .460" diameter the rifles wouldn't group or even stabilize the bullet. What I use now is the Lee 405gr hollow base bullet, a copy of the 1873 Govt bullet, already mentioned and the SAECO 881 bullet, a copy of the 500gr 1881 govt. Over 70grs of compressed ffg black powder accuracy is excellent. The 405 gr bullet over 59grs ffg makes an excellent carbine load. If you want to know more then I strongly suggest you get a copy of Wolf's book on loading for the Trapdoor. Google "Wolf's Western Traders"

Jerry Liles

quote:

Originally posted by swheeler:
love this IGNORE feature! Now I don't have to worry about what Larry or Idabull have to say, never was much interested in excuses anyways.

I'm glad you are going to ignore me on this site now. At least you've gotten a lot more agreeable over on the cast boolit site. Your posts on the stuck case thread were right on and I was glad to see someone question starmetal on his drop figures on the current 6.5 thread. Too bad you've a personal grudge for some unkown reason as we agree on an aweful lot concerning cast bullet shooting. Best to you in your endeavers.

Larry Gibson

Larry,

I doubt you got measurements with Cerrosafe. For one thing, the barrel has 3 grrove rifling and requires a special mike or fixture to measure.

From my experience, listen to the folks that told you to get bullets of at least 0.460" diameter and no harder than 1:30. I've never tried the hollow base Lee bullets, but have acquaintances who have done very well with it, since it obturates into the bore.

Watch the smokeless-the TD is not a strong action, and it's to overdo the pressure. Either SR4759 or 5744 work well, but I'd stay below ~26 grains of either-just my advice, YMMV.

Try the Spence Wolf method of loading with black powder. He got excellent results with the old warhorse.

Clarence

ClaMar

I doubt you got measurements with Cerrosafe. For one thing, the barrel has 3 grrove rifling and requires a special mike or fixture to measure.

I'm not sure where you get the idea I use cerrosafe to measure groove diameter in TD barrels(?). I have slugged many TD barrels and have used a fixture as you mentioned that a machinist had. I also use a small strip of shim stock around the slug and measure that diameter. Then subtracting twice the thickness of the shim gives the groove diameter to within .001". There are also a couple published lists of TD groove diameters, a little research and you'll find them.

I'll assume the rest of your post was directed at Marty(?)

Larry Gibson

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Gibson:

quote:

Originally posted by swheeler:
love this IGNORE feature! Now I don't have to worry about what Larry or Idabull have to say, never was much interested in excuses anyways.

I'm glad you are going to ignore me on this site now. At least you've gotten a lot more agreeable over on the cast boolit site. Your posts on the stuck case thread were right on and I was glad to see someone question starmetal on his drop figures on the current 6.5 thread. Too bad you've a personal grudge for some unkown reason as we agree on an aweful lot concerning cast bullet shooting. Best to you in your endeavers.

Larry Gibson

Larry; you are not on my ignore list anymore. I am just trying to get FACTS, and sometimes it's hard to get straight answers. In the process of trying to understand friends get their feelings hurt, it happens. Scot