Gents:
I need your assistance.
After a long and cold winter I am shooting my beloved doubles again (although snow is expected Friday) and I am having a problem. When I reload with cast bullets in my .600 and the bullets are lubed with a hard lube (LBT Commercial Blue) I get a few mis fires and hang fires. When I reload with a softer lube (50-50 candle wax and vaseline) all are duds. The powder is solidified in chunks and won't ignite. I thought I had contaminated brass but a reload with jacketed Woodleigh bullets fired 100% fine.

What's going on? How is my bullet lube contaminating the powder? I use a card wad between the bullet and powder and also pillow stuffing on reduced loads.

I'm lost and your input is appreciated.
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
Gents:
I need your assistance.
After a long and cold winter I am shooting my beloved doubles again (although snow is expected Friday) and I am having a problem. When I reload with cast bullets in my .600 and the bullets are lubed with a hard lube (LBT Commercial Blue) I get a few mis fires and hang fires. When I reload with a softer lube (50-50 candle wax and vaseline) all are duds. The powder is solidified in chunks and won't ignite. I thought I had contaminated brass but a reload with jacketed Woodleigh bullets fired 100% fine.

What's going on? How is my bullet lube contaminating the powder? I use a card wad between the bullet and powder and also pillow stuffing on reduced loads.

I'm lost and your input is appreciated.
Cal

This is a thorny one. What powder are you using and how old? If it has just been loaded why is it solidifying, I presume you are pulling the bullets on the duds to see this state of the powder? Has the powder 'gone off' causing clumping and poor ignition characteristics - smell?
Fresh powder with wads and filler just has to ignite unless a very slow one underloaded where even the filler is not allowing proper pressure build.

Eagle:
Powder is 1-2 years old, IMR 4831.
I'm lost and will try more this weekend.
Cal

Cal,

I take it that the card wad and stuffing show no signs of contamination or discoloration.

I load a lot of cast bullets and have used all sorts of lubes over the years. I've loaded and stored the ammo for long periods of time and I've never once had lube contamination into the powder. I can't see how you would get that with LBT Hard lube and especially with a card and tuff of filler behind the bullet. I think you either have bad/moist powder, perhaps moist loading conditions that somehow causes condensation inside the cartridge or maybe bad primers.

I forgot one thing. I feel IMR 4831 is too slow a powder for cast bullets. They don't offer as much resistance as the jacketed and slower powders need that in cast loads to burn efficiently.

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
Eagle:
Powder is 1-2 years old, IMR 4831.
I'm lost and will try more this weekend.
Cal

I use same powder in my 404 for jacketed loads and the powder is now 20+ years old and still fine so your much younger lot should be perfect except maybe as SmokinJ says, could have somehow absorbed moisture either in storage or when being loaded.

I had tried lower loads of 4831 when first loading my cast bullets in the 404 (over 20 years ago) and got down to 55.0 grains with dacron filler to get some grouping with the plain based bullets, down from the usual jacketed load of 85.0 grains. I got delayed ignition with some shots to the point of being good hangfires. Although I shot a few goats and deer with this load I did back out from it when I started to read of detonation possibilities with low loads of slow powder.

Currently use AR2209 (IMR4350 in the USA)for reduced loads with cast bullets, 63.0 grains compared to full loads with this powder which would be 81.0 or so grains.
I now put a gas check on the bullets and use a wool wad over the powder and use magnum primers. Very accurate load.
Without the wad I sometimes perceive a minute slight ignition delay although I might be super sensitive. Another 404 user here with same bullets, powder and charge does not use any filler. My 404 has quite some free bore which may effect ignition a little compared with his tighter chambered rifle.

Like SmokinJ I think 4831 is maybe just too slow for reduced loads although you may have more experience with this powder than us.

Hope you can solve the problem.

With a 900-grain bullet I shoot 100-115-130-145-and a full charge is 160 grains in my .600 NE.

Today it is snowing so in a few days I'll reload and shoot again. If the problem with cast continues I will let you all know.
Cal

Have you tried the same powder with similar charges with a jacketed bullet? If you do don't be surprised if you get hangfires or a burst barrel.

It sounds like you have poor ignition at low pressure and low temps. It has nothing at all to do with the bullets. I hope you are using the hottest primer possible.

I would have to say why are you using such a slow burning powder with cast bullets.

If you can find data you might want to try something like SR4759, 4227, 4198, 3013 or 4895.
And tilt the muzzle up before each shot if your load does not fill about 65% to 75% of the volume.

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
With a 900-grain bullet I shoot 100-115-130-145-and a full charge is 160 grains in my .600 NE.

Today it is snowing so in a few days I'll reload and shoot again. If the problem with cast continues I will let you all know.
Cal

SR:
Burst barrels? How?
I use jacketed Woodleighs with 160 grains of the 4831 as that fills the case, regulates well for accuracy, and gives the correct velocity of 1900 fps. Been doing so for 5-6 years. the only time I get problems is with lead bullets and more so the softer the lube. Will shoot again tomorrow.
Cheers all and thanks for your input.
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
SR:
Burst barrels? How?
I use jacketed Woodleighs with 160 grains of the 4831 as that fills the case, regulates well for accuracy, and gives the correct velocity of 1900 fps. Been doing so for 5-6 years. the only time I get problems is with lead bullets and more so the softer the lube. Will shoot again tomorrow.
Cheers all and thanks for your input.
Cal

Cal
If you get stop/start ignition at low pressures and temperatures you could possible get a bullet to start and stop resulting in a burst barrel. It is not due to an excessive powder charge but due to poor ignition.
Your experience may be fine with heavier loads but your cast bullet loads have a large amount of air space in the case.
Just because you have been getting away with it with a near full case does not mean you will get away with it with a light load of slow burning powder - especially at low temperatures. Your misfires are trying to tell you something and it is not about the cast bullets or the lube.

I have fired thousands of rounds of 45-70 and 40-65 ammo with cast bullets and never had a single misfire.

You just can't take a huge case, pour it half full of slow burning powder and expect it to light off especially at lower temperatures.

sounds like it might be low pressure = bad ignition.

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
SR:
Burst barrels? How?
I use jacketed Woodleighs with 160 grains of the 4831 as that fills the case, regulates well for accuracy, and gives the correct velocity of 1900 fps. Been doing so for 5-6 years. the only time I get problems is with lead bullets and more so the softer the lube. Will shoot again tomorrow.
Cheers all and thanks for your input.
Cal

Like I mentioned before that cast bullet doesn't have enough bore resistance to help the powder burn efficiently in addition to the things that SR told you. Try pounding a jacketed bullet down the bore and then a cast one and see the difference. Couple this with the primer not being able to give the huge amount of slow burning powder the proper ignition. I agree that you have been lucky that things didn't turn nasty. You really should buy some faster powders and start a whole new more safe load and one that more then likely work with the cast bullet too.

I am not familiar with your IMR 4831, but as I can see from the burnrate chart it is a pretty slow powder.
I have been using cast bullets for my 375HH, 458 Lott and 470NE for a long time now and only use the regular powder for full or close to full loads.
When I reduce loads I go for a faster powder close to your IMR 4198.
I have tried the click-bang with slower powder, and that gave my a creepy feeling.

quote:

Your misfires are trying to tell you something and it is not about the cast bullets or the lube.

I second that. It's the Reduced loading of 4831 and something else, probably start tension thus even more problem lighting off the powder. A full pressure load of 4831 as noted above would doubtless work well. Lighting it with a Mag primer would help as well.

Cal,

What primer are you using, Fed 215?

The only time I've had hang fires was with my 350 Rigby using mild loads of Varget sparked off with a CCI 200, and at lower temps. It was odd as when I first tried the load at ~60F I had moa accuracy. I was stoked,so I loaded up a box of them and then went back to the range but the temp had dropped to the 40's. Click, bang, pause for 5 rds, rather un-nerving. So I tried the same powder charge with CCI 250, Fed 210 and Fed 215. No hang fires with the other primers, but the accuracy was 2 moa.

If you're not using a Fed 215, I'd switch primers as it's the hottest one on the market.

The clumped powder is a mystery, but I had that issue with my 500 jeffrey with RL15 and Barnes 570 X, not sure why?

low pressure = poor ignition - changing to softer lube gives you even less pressure (100% duds). You need more wad, a better crimp, a heavier bullet, or more or a different powder. Your recipe isn't working but your lube is not contaminating the powder.

You may need to use a duplex load. Use a faster burning powder next to primer then the IMR 4831.
Another solution would be to use easier igniting rifle powder like IMR 3031 with a tissue tamped down firmly. The tissue will burn to ash before the bullet has moved 3 or 4 inches down the barrel.

Jim

So what's the verdict ? This post is pretty old.

Not only are there tons of load data on the internet several manufacturer also have it for the 600 NE, 900 grain bullets and H4831 which is a popular powder.

https://www.google.com/search?..........0.xtok9PWtfp4

I think some of the previous posters appropriately analyzed the problems with the powder clumping and hardening. Of course there over 200 smokeless powders these days with different shapes.sizes, compositions, burn rates and coatings. But generally powder can go bad in a container due to extreme heat or extreme cold in addition to moisture.

Was the problem remedied ?

Had a similar problem with my 458. Would get duds and then pull the tips and see vast clumps of powder. Using 500 grain cast bullets with LBT lube.

Turned out it was the rifle.....I had the firing pin and spring replaced and problem was solved.

Here is the answer; 4831 is not suitable for reduced loads; it won't burn right at low pressure. It ain't the bullet lube. Go to a faster powder for reduced loads.
I am sure you know all this already.
And if your powder is contaminated, I am not surprised; vaseline will do that if the rounds are stored bullet up.
Wait, this is 2 years old!

Use a jute wad on the bottom...