Did some shooting today which confirms my belief that the Oldfeller boolit is a good 'un.

Due to the success that many of us have reported with 2400, I decided on a series of loads for this 100-year-old takedown sporter, with its 24" barrel and open sights. All loads had the bullet (sized .268") seated at 3.118 inches overall length. At this seating, it FIRMLY engages the rifling...like, if I don't "unload through the muzzle", I will NOT get that boolit back without a cleaning rod. It may even be getting seated deeper by the camming action of the closing bolt, but I'm not sure. The length is too much for the magazine, so after I identify what works well I'll have another session to see if I can find an equally-good load which will function through that wonderful rotary magazine.

All loads used dacron fill, all groups fired at 50 yards, open sights.

14.0 2400 ran 1479, es 78, sd 32, five rounds in 1.7".

15.0 2400 gave 1543, es 27, sd 10.7, 4 rounds in 0.65", with a called shot spreading the group to 1.3".

16.0 2400 (Remember this charge, the one that works "in anything"? Guess what...) travelled 1637, es 16.4, sd 7.1, and FIVE ROUNDS IN 0.7", three in 0.13"!!! I CAN'T SEE THAT WELL!! DANG!!!

17.0 2400 gave me 1674, es 17, sd 7.5, and placed five boolits in a flat inch.

A couple loads with IMR 4198 were tried, too.

18.0 4198, dacron, went 1622, es 33, sd 12.5, grouping five in 1.6".

20.0 4198, dacron, ran 1763, es 47, sd 18, and the five landed in 1.75".

4198 may warrant some more exploration, but the 2400 loads are GREAT! I'm gonna push them a leetle harder just to see if the accuracy disappears as I get above that "6.5 threshold" of about 1700 fps.

Regards from BruceB (aka Bren Mk1)

Bruce, what size did I do that one for you again?

I really feel for you having to put up with all that rotten accurate-type shooting, so if you want I'll retune your mold for you so as to fix it like everybody elses, all you gotta do is send it to me.

Next thing, he'll be shooting it over 2,000 fps and getting similar rotten good accuracy. Then I really will have to inspect his mold for defects.

Oldfeller

Whups, he isn't shooting it in any super-fast 6.5 inch twist rate Swede Mauser barrel, that's his gimmick.

Bruce - what is the twist rate on that there Man-licker tube you are using? I looked up your mold stuff, your bullet was one of them way-way-oversized ones, now wasn't it?

He's CHEATING on us, boys ...... using a NON-Swede barrel and a NON-Swede twist rate, no wonder he is getting such good results.

You aren't going to get your proper dose of "advanced cast bullet training" with you cutting all those non-Swede corners like that -- you may not even get up to "properly frustrated" at all.

Oldfeller

Now,now,jealousy won't get y'all very far at all!

The Speer #7 manual (I THINK) lists the Mannlicher-Schoenauer twist rate as 1 in 8.5" IIRC, so it's not exactly a lazy rate. The combo is definitely showing promise, though, and I'll keep you posted.

The Oldfeller sizing die is .268". Works for my rifle....

Regards from BruceB (aka Bren Mk1)

.......So far BruceB is within the 'specs' for decent shooting with the 6.5 and his M-S. These 4 targets fired with the identical load but from 2 barrel lengths (24" & 29") the velocity 'thing'.



These were fired at 50 yards, issue sights and triggers. Boolits were visually inspected only, and thrown charges (32.0) of WC872 with a Dacron wad. As you can see in the 2 lefthand targets the velocities/accuracy are within about what we expect for lead in the 6.5 Swede.

The 2 righthand targets from the 29" bbl of the M96 has moved just 'at' the fringe of good shooting. Since both groups still had 4 close and a flier, if the loading perameters were tightened up ie: Scaled bullets, scaled charges, crimp-no crimp, seating depth, etc then the flier might go away.

In any regard, BruceB has done some fine shooting with the M-S, and is lucky that he now has a bullet available that obviously does work :-)!

........Buckshot

I just think it's just terrible that EVERYBODY outshoots me with my own bullet. If it wasn't for Sundog I would just give up on it completely (Please don't get those N/C O.S. nosed molds swapped out by LEE, Sundog, I need you to hang tight with what you got there, buddy).

I know most of you shouldn't be able to shoot your el-supremo longo 6.5 Swede bullet any better than I can, because all my 500+ lubed bullets were cast and lubed at random from your own 100 molds while I was proving out the freshly lapped cavities and checking out the initial 28 lapped sizing dies (various diameters).

Since I have a good statistical representative sample of the entire population of molds and sizing dies, you (by all rights) should shoot just as poorly as I do.

It just isn't fair ....

<g>

Oldfeller

[ 09-05-2003, 20:45: Message edited by: Oldfeller ]

The Mannlicher went along to the range today with the .416.

I had two powder charges loaded, namely 16.0 2400 and 18.0 2400, all with dacron fill. I used these charges under two 6.5mm boolits, one being the Oldfeller and the other Lyman's 268645.

The Oldfeller with 16.0 2400 and dacron went 1613, ES 47, SD 14. Two five-round groups at 50 yards were 1.2" and 1.4" (the latter including an uncalled high flyer.

With 18.0 2400, the OF boolit left at 1712, ES 23, SD 7.7 and the two groups were 1.8" (horizontal) and 1.4" (with four in 1.1").

268645 is a fair bit lighter than the Oldfeller boolit, and 16.0 2400 drove it at 1648, ES 24, SD 6.7....groups were kinda loose at 2.4" with an uncalled flyer, and 1.4" with a flyer. The 1.4" group had four in 0.6". Sounds familiar, somehow.

268645 and 18.0 2400 gave 1767, ES 29, SD 9.5. Nice consistency, but the groups were 1.5" and 1.2".

Both bullets seem to want to shoot for me, and I'll be doing more experimenting. At the overall lengths used today, the OF can be extracted from the chamber and it also feeds from the mag. The 268645 wants to stay jammed in the throat, but it also feeds from the magazine very nicely.

I would not want to increase this 2400 powder charge in the 100-year-old rifle. There's a fair bit of authority in that steel buttplate at the 18.0 level, and the loads are definitely up into the normal-working-pressure vicinity.

I'm CERTAIN that the loads and rifle can do better, as my abilities with open sights are (to put it charitably) "limited". I'm using my own black-semicircle/white-square targets, and this helps a whole bunch with iron sights.

Regards from BruceB (aka Bren Mk1)

Bruce,

45 2.1 probably had himself a Man-licker (he had every other gun under the sun) but I never saw a 6.5 Swede bullet after installation in that particular throat.

I'm simply curious, where/how far back does the rifling mark the nose, does the front band get hit good by the end of the throat and do you get any cylinder-type marking over the sized driver bands?

You guys please remember 45 2.1 did the fine design work on the 6.5 Swede bullet, all I did was push the details and insist on as much weight and as big a meplat as would feed through all the rifles.

45 2.1 had all the various different guns to do all the fine tuning with, I had one (1) Swedish Mauser.

If that bullet fits Bruce's gun as tightly as I suspect it does he owes a vote of thanks to the man that designed it -- 45 2.1

Oldfeller

The 6.5 bullet was fitted to several rifles. The Jap, Carcano, ML, Swede and French. At least one of each and in some cases, alot. Strangly enough, all these rifles seem to have used the same 160 grain nominal bullet in each cartridge as there was little difference in the throats. The difference was in the seating depth. It would probably been better to have a 160 grain bullet instead of the 170 grain, but oldfeller was quite insistant about the length!

test

(Had some trouble posting this earlier.)

Here's what my 6.5x54 rifle/Oldfeller boolit combo tells me, after some fiddling this morning.

Anything longer than 3.070" won't fit into the magazine.

The bullets, water-dropped straight WW, measure as follows:

-At the gascheck: .268"

-First band up from the base: .2665-.268"

-Next band up: same as first band

-Third band up: .2665- .2675"

-Fourth band: same as #3

-Just ahead of the leading lube groove, .264-.2665"

Nose diameter: .2595"

Measurements were taken with a Mitutoyo electronic caliper which only reads to half-a-thou, so there is likely some error built into the figures.

The bullet extracted nicely from the chamber/throat until I reached 3.100" overall length. This length leaves just the gascheck and bottom driving band in the neck, and the check is about .100" above the base of the caseneck. The bullet remained in the throat at this seating depth when the case was extracted.

At 3.100", there are just the first very faint traces of rifling marks on the nose, about halfway along the nose from the point where the initial widening of the nose takes place. Until the seating depth reached this point, the only real contact along the bullet's length was at the mould parting lines on both sides of the bullet. It is apparent to me that the bullet fits that LONG throat rather well, since it's making contact on all three bands exposed out of the case. I think we're talking in terms of about 1/2 thousandth of an inch clearance around the boolit, except at the mould lines! There is no evidence of a "cylindrical" contact, but the throat fit is danged close, lemme tell you.

With all that bullet length clearly making contact during the launch, this bullet is WELL-guided by the chamber en route to the lands.

Since 3.100" is a good bit longer than the mag will accept, and since the parting-line contact was evident even at 3.040', I think the next batch will be loaded at max magazine length just to see if it works better than my ARBITRARILY chosen (like, out of thin air) 3.040" used last time.

I don't expect to use the combination for hunting, but magazines, especially the incredible M-S rotary mag, are meant to be used....so why not?

I wish I had better eyes and/or sighting equipment, in order to find out what's really possible. It's fun playing with this rig and bullet, though. I can't bring myself to drill holes into a 100-year old classic rifle, and original aperture sights (no gunsmithing type) cost a collector's fortune. It has a spring-loaded aperture sight in the tang, but the aperture is CRUDE in adjustment (windage only, by dovetail) and is either frozen or so tight that I'm reluctant to force it.

I like just LOOKING at that long, sleek rascal of a bullet, though. It conjures up thoughts of 1000-yard match shooting, even....

Regards from BruceB (aka Bren Mk1)

"I done told you, 160 grain bullets already exist and you can even buy them storebought. That's not something special ....

A 170 grain large flat meplat cast lead HBC wonder bullet doesn't exist right now, let's try to make us one that fits the throat really really good, with it being just as long as will barely fit into the magazine carrying just as much mass and meplat as we can possibly trick into loading from the magazine into a Swede's throat."

And you guys think we didn't have any fun discussions while playing with all those form slugs and all. We were fighting the loading vs the biggest meplat vs heaviest thickest nose wars.

That nose, it has a lot more to it than you think. The curve, shape and the size are just so.

I'm still waiting for the recipe for 2,200+ fps with good hunting accuracy (<3 inches?). Bruce won't find it in his Man-licker because he won't stress the old dear that badly.

Somebody with a cheap looking gain-twist Caracano will likely ring that bell first.

Oh Buckshot ...

<g>

Oldfeller

Oldfeller, pard;

"He won't stress the old dear that badly."

Hmmmm. Strangely enough, I do recall some 140 Partititions which left the muzzle of the Old Dear (you have just NAMED my rifle, BTW, thanks...grin) at 2700 fps with good accuracy. There's surely nothing wrong wth the strength of the rifle! A couple of caribou were very impressed.

3"/100 yards/2200???It actually never occurred to me to try pushing the cast boolit to that extent, but I am perfectly willing to give 'er a go, old sport. Think of all time I can save, NOT having to stuff dacron down that small neck! The smaller-than-Swede case is an efficient "pusher" indeed.

I have some ideas on the subject, but where would YOU start with powders for such an endeavor?? The rifle has a two-leaf rear express sight, and shoots right at the point of aim at 50 yards with the lowest leaf at 1600 fps. I don't expect much trouble staying on paper as the speed rises.

Regards from BruceB

Well, let's see. I used IMR 7383 in all my upper speed experiments on the Swede, mainly because it was dirt cheap.

IMR 7383 is faster than IMR 4831 by all my experiences with the two, so (being conservative) maybe IMR 7831 is a good one to try out in the Old Dear.

Using IMR 7383, I ran the speeds right on up well into Waksupi's magic disappearing zone for the fast-twist Swede (which was over 2,400 fps) without distressing the brass or causing any signs of excessive pressure.

Yeah, if you are going to use a canister powder, use IMR 4831 out of respect for the Old Dear. It is slower than IMR 7383 and ought to top end you with a case full at a "reasonable pressure" in the smaller case.

Just gotta be careful about that term "reasonable pressure" when folks like me or Buckshot use it - I have loosened the primer pockets of a piece or two of brass before when I was seeking the top end for mil-surp powder like IMR 7383. The load I backed off down to would by my definition be "reasonable" for my gun and the particular lot of brass I was using since even on a hot summer day (cooked a bit by letting it sit in a hot barrel) it would cause no distress to either IN MY GUN ONLY.

What is your definition of reasonable? Pick a powder that will fill the case and get the speed you want with the least amount of pressure possible. IMR 4831 would likely be a safe place to start in that search.

Good luck,

Oldfeller

[ 09-14-2003, 23:34: Message edited by: Oldfeller ]

I see the 6.5 debacle continues. I'm reading a lot of deja vu in these posts, having already tread this ground...2 different Swedes, a Jap, a Mauser in .260 and my own Mannlicher Schoenauer. Me THINKS a 10 inch twist and an appropriate bullet will cure the troubles...likely something in the 100-120 grain range. Screw thrads and cast bullets don't mix well.

Hey Jump, I'm really curious as to what his top end really is -- his groups are really very pretty at nearly 1,800 fps so he might have some more steam left before he spins out into left-hand twist (disappearing) banana-bullet land.

Left hand or right hand?? -- Bruce, when you rifle twists over on firing, does the scope tilt to the right away from your face like a Swede does? Swedes turn the bullet to the left (counter-clock-wise) while rotating the gun to the right (clock-wise).

Just a thought.

Oldfeller

Viewed from the chamber end, the rifling on the Mannlicher-Schoenauer twists clockwise....I do believe this is a right-hand twist (grin).

I've recently begun using a rifle rest made by my friendly elves in the mine shop for shooting from Der Schuetzenwagen's benchrest. This is constructed with a screw-adjustable post on a circular steel-plate base, and weighs at least twenty pounds. The rifle rests in a padded trough made from 2" angle iron, and since using this deeper-notched rest I do not see any torquing of the rifle such as I used to see on the Hoppes' rest.

Oldfeller, you asked, "Does the scope tilt away to the right...? NO SCOPE, pard, this'n gets fired with the sixty-year-old Mark I eyeball and open iron sights, which is why I really don't know if the results I get are representative for the rifle and ammo. I hope so, but....?

IMR 4831 was my favored fuel with jacketed loads for this rifle, so I have a good idea of where to start with the stuff under cast bullets. I may have a chance to try some recipes at the range tomorrow, and will let you know what happens.

Regards from BruceB (aka Bren Mk1)

I don't think there is a thing wrong with the bore diameter (6.5 mm) or the bullets...it's the damned fast twist the military 160 RN's demanded. Given a gentler twist, the 6.5's will shoot as well as anything....no reason they shouldn't.

I just guess the bullet strips the rifling due to the sharp twist. Most other calibers shoot well with a 10" twist and faster than that...it gets iffy at best. So, given a slower twist and a shorter bullet that the slower twist will stabilize, I think Nirvana can be achieved.

Driven by extreme curiosity, I loaded some Oldfeller boolits over what I thought was a judicious amount of IMR4831.

The starting load, based on prior experience with the other kind of bullets, was 40.0 grains IMR4831. The velocity was right where we wanted it, about 2200 fps. Pressures were substantial, but certainly not maximum.

The "accuracy" was DISMAL, horrible, unbelievable....select yer adjectives. With ten rounds fired on a clean 30"x 48" cardboard backer, only four holes were found (from fifty yards!). All holes showed some severe tipping, but no outright keyholes.

The barrel was dark-looking after ten rounds, but I can't say I actually SAW any leading such as I've seen in the past. A .270-7mm bronze brush met considerable resistance for a dozen or so trips back-and-forth, and then passed through much easier. The bore was restored to its normal brightness quite easily.

These boolits were water-dropped from the mould. I think the next step is to oven-heat-treat a batch to see if the extra hardness allows the boolit to "hold" the rifling better.

If not, then it's back to the 1700-fps area, I guess, and a gradual work-up from there.

Regards from BruceB (aka Bren Mk1)

It wasn't simple tipping, that would still tend to fly relatively straight.

Those were flying wobbling overspin "bent bananas".

Overspin strikes again !!!

Push it really really hard and you can sometimes get two holes per shot sometimes (when the banana fatigues in two from wobbling and bending back and forth as it whips through the air at over 130,000 rpm).

Spinning a bullet three times faster than a dremel tool can turn doesn't do good things for a long-for-its-diameter bullet.

Jump will tell you shorter 6.5 bullets do a little bit better (but not much). Speed kills in 6.5 caliber lead (spin induced bending kills, actually).

Oldfeller

[ 09-17-2003, 04:11: Message edited by: Oldfeller ]

And what tips that overspun gyroscope into progressing (wobbling) its way into this destructive bending in flight?

I think this happens when the bullet is still accelerating strongly when it exits the muzzle.

If you use a powder that burns completely well inside the barrel (like 18-20 grains of 2400) then your bullet is NOT accelerating strongly at an increasing rate upon muzzle exit like it is when fired using 40 grains of slow IMR 4831.

2400 has already finished its strong acceleration phase (completely finished burning) and is NOT still building up an increasing pressure. It has actually started to drop pressure strongly as the encompassed bore volume continues to increase behind the bullet and the hot powder gases have actually begun to cool as the burn is 100% completely over now.

With 2400, the bullet exits under much much less acceleration stress, which tends NOT to tip the overspun gyro off it's axis. Muzzle whip would be logically less severe now, wouldn't it?

With 4831, the bullet is still being driven hard, accelerating strongly, driven by still burning slow powder which is still maintaining the high pressure levels (even with the encompassed bore volume behind the bullet increasing) as the bullet slides down the tube. Slow powders work that way, they are still burning and keeping the overall pressure up all the way out the end of the tube.

They are not "dropping off" strongly like a fast pistol powder would be.

Remember from all the gun writers that cut their barrels down by the inch to get yet one more article on how much velocity changes when you cut a barrel down by inches? I remember 40-50 fps being a number stated by one of them as the average change when they whacked off an inch on a .270 Winchester.

Now think of that long skinny 6.5 bullet (over an inch long) with IMR 4831 trying to make it pick up say 30 fps from the time the flat tip of the bullet exits until the gas check actually exits the muzzle.

The butt end of the bullet is actually trying to go 30 fps faster than the tip end, with the tip end being completely unsupported by the barrel steel.

That would progress (wobble) my gyro, by golly.

The mechanical strength of lead (even hardened lead) can't withstand increasing deflection at those high (over 130,000 rpm) spin rates once the gyro gets upset.

Bruce, try running up 2400 and see how high it will go before the bullet "goes bananas" from overspin wobble. You will likely get better groups at a higher speed with 2400 compared to IMR 4831.

(if the above thoughts have any merit, anyway)

Oldfeller

[ 09-17-2003, 08:30: Message edited by: Oldfeller ]