Like an idiot, I gave away my lube / sizer. I will have to buy another but was wondering about pan lubing. I have read that it is easy and is better at getting the lube so it holds.

Your thoughts?

quote:

Originally posted by bigcabin:
Like an idiot, I gave away my lube / sizer. I will have to buy another but was wondering about pan lubing. I have read that it is easy and is better at getting the lube so it holds.

Your thoughts?

You still have to size them. Pan lubing is a PIA and for cheapo cast bullet shooters in my opinion. I bought a luber/sizer long ago and never looked back. Luber/sizers stick the lube in the groove plenty good enough too.

starmetal,

you must not have ever cast bullets with accuracy in mind. Have you ever heard the theory that everything you do to a cast bullet after you drop it gently on a folded-up towel is bad for it?

Big Cabin(hi Dana!),

pan lubing allows you to lubricate the bullet without making any changes to its dimensions. Very few people who shoot for accuracy use a sizer these days, excepting the members of the Swaged Bullet Assn (used to be the cast bullet assn, but nobody shoots bullets "As-cast" for competition anymore; who cast and then lube/size and then swage to final dimensions.

All you need is a double boiler and your lube of choice. Melt it in the DB and then pour the melted lube into a pan with your cast bullets standing in it. Pour to just above the top grease groove and let cool. Pop the lube block out of the pan and push the bullets back thru the lube base first. If you are shooting GC bullets it is tough to attach a GC.

Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...

Don't know what you're shooting but a Lee sizer and tumble lube might work for you for around 15 bucks and seat the check. Even if you don't size you might be able to use the lube.

Before I got a lube sizer, I used a variety of ways to lube bullets. There is lee tumble lube which works well for mild loads and bullets that don't need sizing.

And then for bullets that did need sizing I'd smear lube in the grooves, then run them through a lee press mounted sizer. It was a messy afair, but effective and cheap.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
starmetal,

you must not have ever cast bullets with accuracy in mind. Have you ever heard the theory that everything you do to a cast bullet after you drop it gently on a folded-up towel is bad for it?

Big Cabin(hi Dana!),

pan lubing allows you to lubricate the bullet without making any changes to its dimensions. Very few people who shoot for accuracy use a sizer these days, excepting the members of the Swaged Bullet Assn (used to be the cast bullet assn, but nobody shoots bullets "As-cast" for competition anymore; who cast and then lube/size and then swage to final dimensions.

All you need is a double boiler and your lube of choice. Melt it in the DB and then pour the melted lube into a pan with your cast bullets standing in it. Pour to just above the top grease groove and let cool. Pop the lube block out of the pan and push the bullets back thru the lube base first. If you are shooting GC bullets it is tough to attach a GC.

Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...

Rich,

Go over on the Castboolits forum and ask 45 2.1 and Bassackwards about me shooting cast bullets accurately. That's all I need to say.

Joe

yeah, right!

The first gentleman on your list of references is the one who made the statement that he has a 45-70 caliber rifle (lever, I believe) that shoots groups the the 2" range at 257 yards, and then closed the post when people challenged him to do so in public. Besides, weren't you banned from that site?

Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
yeah, right!

The first gentleman on your list of references is the one who made the statement that he has a 45-70 caliber rifle (lever, I believe) that shoots groups the the 2" range at 257 yards, and then closed the post when people challenged him to do so in public. Besides, weren't you banned from that site?

Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...

If you have a good luber/sizer whose ram is true straight with the sizing die, there is not much difference then sizing them by other means. I have shot many very small groups with this kind of sizing. I've also sized the other ways too. I haven't bent bullets sizing them base first either in my sizer. I'm not about to get into a pissing contest with you over sizing.

Yes I was banned from there, so what?

Sizing can be harmful and it can be benificial. Sizing in essence is swaging BTW. I recently completed a comprehensive test using 3 different .308W rifles with 3 different twists. Part of that test was to see what effect sizing had on accuracy. The bullet used was 311466. It dropped from the mould at .314". Using selected and weighed bullets (+/- .5 gr) I ran a test with the bullets sized .308, 309, .311, 312 and .314". The bullets sized .311" proved to be decidedly the most accurate in each rifle.

I'm of the opinion that minimal sizing should be used if any but the bullet must also fit the throat of the chamber (or cylinder of a revolver). I've consistantly found that most throats are .001-.003 over the "bore" size. This is why I advise to slug the throat and go with that. The size of the "bore" really doesn't matter. Size the bullet to fit the throat or .001" over is my recommendation.

Joe

I've seen many of your groups and you do shoot pretty small groups. I agree that tumble lubing and pan lubing are a pain. I even lube Lee's TL bullets in my 450s. I do occasional TL but not very often. I have not pan lubed for more years than I wish to remember. I agree with Idaho that the two listed references have made some pretty outlandish claims. I was supposed to have "dirt thrown in my face" by one of them over how to shoot a 311291 accurately at high velocity. Never happened even though i sent the mould to him. He was not any more successful than any of the rest of us. Anyways I agree that time is better spent getting a lubrasizer and it's not worth a pissing contest arguing about it. How's the 6.5 coming?

Larry Gibson

Larry, I've been messing with a 9mm 1911 match barrel on my Colt Gold Cup. Shoots unbelievably well, but the magazine sucks. Got some new ones on order.

I have a Smith 25 in 45 Colt that doesn't benefit from sizing the bullet to fit the cylinder throats. Deputy Al talked on this recently saying they have cylinder throats on the order of .456. That's what mine are. The groove diameter is .451. I shoot a RCBS 255 SMW out of it and unsized they are .456 to .457, but I size them .452 and it actually shoots better. The unsized fit to the cylinder throat doesn't help this revolver. This is, by the way, one of the most accurate cast bullet shooting revolvers I've ever own. On the other hand you know I have quite a gathering of various 30 Luger semi autos and if I size much over groove diameter for them the accuracy goes south. Unsized it terrible. Problem is,see, one of them is a commercail Luger. It's groove diameter is .311. The others are .309. I have sizers all around those number and I tried .313 for everything, as that shoots exceptionally well in the Luger, but not as good in the other guns when they use bullets sized to .310. Again, the Luger is another extremely accurate semi with cast, blows my mine away it's that good. Interesting too I have no problems with it even cycling low power loads (has new springs in it so they aren't weak) and never jams, and I lucked out on the trigger as it's not so spongy bad as others.

But I agree with you if you have a good luber/sizer, it's a PIA to size by other methods.

quote:

I ran a test with the bullets sized .308, 309, .311, 312 and .314". The bullets sized .311" proved to be decidedly the most accurate in each rifle.

Interesting results!
I have been working on a mould that produces bullets that fit my rifles chamber exactly and without sizing (and the gas check cast in place). The bullet is beginning to have a funny shape! Not ready for range testing yet - the nose is too tapered and the step from the base diameter to nose diameter is too sudden. This bullet is intended to be pan lubed - but it has no lube grooves. It is not a split mould. (Actually, the bullet is intended to be dipped into the pan after it has been seated, using a paper cup which also soaks up some lube).

Larry, if I may ask, is this why shooting a jacketed 308 bullet in a 311 barrel is often inaccurate? It's looseness in the throat, not lack of tightness in the bore?

On that jacketed .308 bullet in a (I assume .311 groove) .311 groove I would say it's a few things. One if it's a fully sized cartridge case that means holding the rifle horizontally, such as the firing position, the cartridge is laying in the bottom of the
chamber, assuming it's smaller then the chambe, thus the bullet isn't centered with the bore. Now if it's only neck sized, because everything for a barrel that has .311 grooves (that is bore diameter, throat, freebore, etc) is of a larger diameter the bullet had a great chance of hitting the bore crooked. Also has room to engage more rifling of one side then the other being the .311 groove diameter is .0150 bigger all around the bullet...or total of .003. In other words very easy for it to get cocked int eh bore and grooves. Being it's not as tight fit as the correct diameter bullet you will lose pressure and doubt there would be any "slugging" up of the bullet.

Thanks starmetal.
The barrel I am interested in testing this in is a British made two-groove, so the bore is 90% of the barrel and is .304 diam. I am trying to relate cast bullets to jacketed. Would paper patching a jacketed bullet (such as a 308 bullet) hold it straight in the throat of a barrel made for 0.311 bullets? This throat is oversize anyway, for military use. Seating the bullet out to nearly touch the lands still does not align the bullet with the bore - not after firing the cartridge expands the case neck, anyway. That assumes the cartridge was symmetrical and aligned with the bore to begin with.

bigcabin, I'm starting to hi-jack your thread – my apologies! On the up-side, your thread has given me the idea to try pan lubing jacketed bullets (well, actually, dip lubing in a pan). I loaded up these rounds then dipped the bullets and necks into waxy-lube until hot then dripped off the excess. Well see what happens at the range!

quote:

Originally posted by 303Guy:
Thanks starmetal.
The barrel I am interested in testing this in is a British made two-groove, so the bore is 90% of the barrel and is .304 diam. I am trying to relate cast bullets to jacketed. Would paper patching a jacketed bullet (such as a 308 bullet) hold it straight in the throat of a barrel made for 0.311 bullets? This throat is oversize anyway, for military use. Seating the bullet out to nearly touch the lands still does not align the bullet with the bore - not after firing the cartridge expands the case neck, anyway. That assumes the cartridge was symmetrical and aligned with the bore to begin with.

bigcabin, I'm starting to hi-jack your thread – my apologies! On the up-side, your thread has given me the idea to try pan lubing jacketed bullets (well, actually, dip lubing in a pan). I loaded up these rounds then dipped the bullets and necks into waxy-lube until hot then dripped off the excess. Well see what happens at the range!

You can certainly give those 308 jacketed bullets a try paper patched. I've shot paper patched 25 caliber jacketed bullets out of a 6.5 barrel with good results. You might try paper patched cast bullets too or do you have a fat 30 caliber mould that will fit that two groove barrel?

quote:

You might try paper patched cast bullets too or do you have a fat 30 caliber mould that will fit that two groove barrel?

I don't. I do have a .311 mould that casts the forward diameter too small. I can make a mould. Do I need gas checks for paper patching? Can I paper patch a two diameter bullet? Do paper patched bullets need to be a perfect as lube-sized?

My idea was to make a bullet fit the throat - even to the point of swaging up a .311 bullet! It is only the ogive that needs reforming and I know it can be done.
I am confident that if I can get the bullet into the rifling straight, I will be on the home stretch. (If that two groove won't shoot straight I am willing to re-cut the chamber and throat).

303Guy

You and Starmetal pretty much got it figured out. Only thing I can ad is sometimes .308 bullets shoot quite well in .311 barrels. A heavy bullet with a long bearing surface many times does . Also I've a M39 Finn MN with a .3105" barrel that shoots .308 bullets extremely well. I believe the reason is the bore is .301 and the rifling gets a really good grip on the bullets. I think the intial resistance as the bullet enters the deeper rifling cause bullet obturation at that point also. Always some exceptions to "rules" but I've not had much success with .308 bullets in .311 barrels generally and poor fit in the throat is part of it as Starmetal mentions. Now jacketed .311 bullets in .308 barrels, especially worn barrels, is another story.

I've paper patched jacketed bullets before. As long as the paper patch fits up into the throat over the ogive of the bullet and bumps the leade (rifling) then they work ok. I rolled them on a new bastard file to roughen them before patching. I forget the guy (Ross Seifired?) wrote an article in G&A on how to patch jacketed bullets and that's what he did.

Larry Gibson

Thanks Larry. That is very helpful. I was wondering how in heck I was going to do the patching. For all these years I never really realized it was the fit in the throat that made all the difference! Dumb! dumb! dumb! It should have been so obvious! (Or if I did, I long forgot).

Ummmmm ..... would a dip in thermosetting resin work? One that remelts of course, like sealing wax or asphalt?

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
yeah, right!

The first gentleman on your list of references is the one who made the statement that he has a 45-70 caliber rifle (lever, I believe) that shoots groups the the 2" range at 257 yards, and then closed the post when people challenged him to do so in public. Besides, weren't you banned from that site?

Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...

Rich-
You have most of what I said somewhat missquoted. I said it was shot with a Navy Arms rolling block with smokeless powder and the Saeco 881 cast soft. The group size for five shots was 3/4" at 257 yards (duplicated several times since BTW). Also, i'm NOT driving half the country away to shoot at your location as I don't have that much interest in blackpowder to do so. The post was closed by the site moderators due to rather nasty language from a blackpowder shooter. I did present a challenge for ANY of you blackpowder shooters to match the group of which I haven't heard any replies as of yet.

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Gibson:
.

I'm of the opinion that minimal sizing should be used if any but the bullet must also fit the throat of the chamber (or cylinder of a revolver). I've consistantly found that most throats are .001-.003 over the "bore" size. This is why I advise to slug the throat and go with that. The size of the "bore" really doesn't matter. Size the bullet to fit the throat or .001" over is my recommendation.

Joe

Anyways I agree that time is better spent getting a lubrasizer and it's not worth a pissing contest arguing about it. How's the 6.5 coming?

Larry Gibson

Most of the current CBA cast bullet benchrest records in "Heavy" Class, and "Unlimited" Class were shot with lubri-sized bullets.

Larry Gibson 's post quoted above is right on the mark. For cast bullet accuracy below .2" groups at 100 yards & the record small groups at 200 yards (and for shooting benchrest score targets at the same distances) I believe the CBA records prove correct bullet fit to the chamber throat is far more important than how that fit was achieved.

Many of us achieve that kind of accuracy by either mechanically sizing down or bumping up bullets to fit the throats of our guns.


Part of the problem with Rich's post is that it is not an all-inclusive "law" as he may believe. Bullet fit is achieved in different ways in different disciplines. In some disciplines, soft bullets are cast undersized (.001 over bore diameter maybe, but still a couple thou under throat size) then bumped up to throat diameter by a very fast burning powder when fired. In other disciplines, very hard bullets are changed dimensionally by lubri-sizers or "bump" dies to fit the throats, and after they leave the throat of the chamber during firing are sized down by the gun barrel to fit the bore.

Either method will work. Neither is notably better than the other if applied correctly, I suspect.