I've encountered this several times in the last couple of months. The rifle I'm shooting is a Savage Model 23 bolt action in .32-20 WCF. The bullet in question is a Lyman 311008, sized to .309" (the barrel slugs .309"). The 50 yard groups are abyssmal, to say the least.

I originally loaded this ammo with 5 grains of Unique, because they were going into an old black powder era 1889 Marlin I was restoring. The barrel was really rough, and they shot like crap... about 24" at 50 yards... so I relined it and haven't had a chance to try it with the new bore yet.

Anyway, I tried them in the Savage 23, which has a perfect bore. Couldn't get a single hit on a small bore target at 50 yards. I kept moving up, and at 15 yards I could just get 5 out of 5 on a 12" target.

Then, I tried some Lee "Soup Can" 120 grain bullets, also sized to .309", loaded to around 1500 FPS. They shot sub- .400" groups at fifty yards. Hmmmm.... says I- "this rifle REEEEEALLY doesn't like the Lyman bullet", and let it go at that.

Later, I got to thinking; "maybe it was the low pressure/low velocity that was causing the problem", and loaded the same bullets (from the same casting session) up to the same velocity as the Lee bullets (12.0 grains of WW 296). The 50 yard groups shrank to 4"-6", with about one out of five key holing. The other holes were not quite round- showing a little tipping at impact- which explained the crappy groups.

But that's where it started to get interesting. Someone had left a bunch of skeet pigeons on the berm at 100 yards.... and I needed to shoot up what I had loaded... so I started plinking. The clay pigeons at 100 didn't stand a chance- using the same ammo that was failing so badly at 50. I switched back and forth between the paper target at 50 and the clay birds at 100... crappy groups at 50, dead pigeons at 100. Consistently. I just don't understand how a bullet can yaw around like a Sparrow missile trying to acquire a target for the first 50 or so, and then stabilize itself and hit the original point of aim. As Kelly Bundy would say: "the mind wobbles!"

I've heard theories about bullets describing a spiral course after leaving the muzzle, but I just can't grasp the physics required to put something on course that's that far off course midrange. Any ideas?

Porosonik.

Well; that is how a top notch pitcher can throw strikes on the outside corner with a curve ball. Consistent delivery of a non straight line projectile. But:
Probably more like the bullet is finally settling down at 100. ??
You might try a .310 or .311 sized Lyman 311008 if you can get it to cast that large and drive it fast enough to stabilize.

Tried it as cast, which is .312"- no improvement. I could try cranking up the velocity... at 1550 there's no discernible signs of pressure at all, even though I'm waaaay over book. Most of the data I've seen is limited to 28,000 cup, so I've been using M-1 Carbine starting data and going from there.

I'm not too worried about ever making this bullet shoot, because the rifle shoots very well with the Lee bullet- I'd just like to know what's going on. I always try to learn something from my experiences if I can.

Porosonik.

Lok how funky a projectile can fly:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9Dylxy3zJc

I would start by having the barrel recrowned.

The other option is that you have a very small pit in the barrel and lead is building up there. When the deposit gets large enough, the next bullet grabs it and carries it out the barrel. That might explain the fliers. That or lube build up and purge.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
I would start by having the barrel recrowned.

The other option is that you have a very small pit in the barrel and lead is building up there. When the deposit gets large enough, the next bullet grabs it and carries it out the barrel. That might explain the fliers. That or lube build up and purge.

The odd thing is that this seems to be the only bullet that doesn't shoot well from this rifle. The 125 Lee shoots sub-.400" groups, and the 100 grain .32 XTP will do sub-.375". Don't think it's the gun. Can't really call them fliers- nothing comes within 4" of POA at 50 yards with this bullet. Seems to shoot just fine at 100 though. That's the weird part. Enquiring minds want to know.....

Porosonik.

What you are describing is impossible. No bullet can shoot into 5 inches at 50 yards, they suddenly get MOA.
But I would check the twist, and the bullet alloy; might not be obturating if too hard.

The seeming impossibility is what caught my attention. The two bullets are from the same alloy... cast from the same pot during the same casting session, sized to the same size through the same sizing die, and are lubed with the same lube. One shoots better than my expectations at both 50 and 100 yards... one shoots OK at 100 and not for crap at 50 or less. The only physical differences between the two are the Lee has much more bearing surface than the Lyman, and is gas checked. Both have similar grease groove depth and width, and I know over-lubing isn't an issue.

I think Einstein studied this back in 1905... and gave up. It's not the end of the world- all the other bullets behave normally. The funny thing is that I bought this rifle because I already had the 3110008 mould and didn't have anything to shoot it in- that's reason enough for buying a rifle, isn't it?

Porosonik.

It almost seems that the base of the bullets in question are not filled out properly, or have defects at the heel... perhaps the hot gasses are cutting a small portion of the bullet as it runs down the barrel... if gases are escaping unevenly as they leave the muzzle, it is possible to "kick" the bullet to one side as it exits, and may be regaining stability farther down range from the bullet rotation and wind resistance, eliminating the wobble... I'm no ballistician, but I did sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night!!

You may be pushing that plain based bullet too fast. Try Lyman's 311316 with the gas check. Frank