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Your poll looks like a Soviet election ballot, choice of one. Mark Pursell | |||
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Hi Marlin Don`t be disappointed . First of all, I believe you click on tab Poll when you should click on Discussion. Second, Hardness Tester Manufacturers have their own web sites, they do not read all specialized sites for fishing questions about their products , although I think their marketing people should do. Thanks Saeed and Paul H we have a not sponsored web site for writing without commercial pressures or conditioning. Third, and the core of your question. For getting info like this you may contact the Manufacturers: Follow those I know LBT Hardness Tester http://www.leverguns.com/lbt/hardness_tester.htm Gussy Hardnes Tester http://www.castingstuff.com/cabinetree_loading_products.htm Saeco Hardness Tester http://www.redding-reloading.com/pages/hardnesstester.html Lee Hardness Tester http://www.leeprecision.com Good luck with your evaluation and share with all us the conclusions. Hope this helps | |||
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BAshooter. Thank you for the information. You are right I clicked on the wrong button. I am new to this. Thanks again. Marlin55 | |||
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Marlin55, sorry I poked fun at your post. It just looked so much like a third world election ballot, my cyber-mouth engaged before my brain. Mark Pursell | |||
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M Pursell. No offense taken. I asked LEE to send me an instruction sheet that comes with their Hardness tester. Theirs is about half the price. If I like it I`ll order one. The Brinell formula was presented some years ago by HANDLOADER magazine. I could not make any headway, everything was wrong. A month later a correction came. Same problem. Then another correction came. This one was right.I you have a machinist handbook it`s relatively easy to figure the hardness. The formula requires you to sort out MM and convert them to inches and assumes you know about square-roots.Like I said before I am using a drill press and bathroom scale. It is not very fast but it gets me there, for now. I like to mention that in order to get a piece of lead sample for testing ( the size of a quarter dollar) I bought a Gas-pipe end cap and had a machinist friend cut the threads out, welded a 9 in. steel rod onto it. I cut a piece of broomstick off, drilled a hole through it and pushed it over the rod as my handle. If it does not lie flat epoxy 3 or 4 washers to the bottom. Works like a charm. Marlin | |||
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marlin55, Your drill press & bathroom scale should work beautifully as long as you do the math right, and it sounds like you are. You can set up a spreadsheet to crunch the numbers so all you have to do is type in the MM and the weight. Actually, if done with care, your drill press tester is probably more accurate than most of the store bought testers. That's because it uses a bigger indentation and bigger force, and because you are measuring the indentation directly -- which can be done accurately with the help of a magnifying glass. The only possible problem with the drill press is that you are supposed to hold the pressure for a certain length of time, and that's got to be tricky with a drill press and bathroom scale. The store bought testers are more convenient to use, but may be less accurate than your home brew tester because they make a smaller indentation with a smaller force for a shorter period of time, and then measure the indentation indirectly (except for the Lee). | |||
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Thanks Popenmann. I think you made a good point in favor of my home-brewed equipment. As you saw I use a thin piece of lead and to indent the ball I made up a little goodie that holds the ball into place. There are several ways to do this. One of them is taking a 0.750 in. steel rod and cutting s sphere into one end to support the ball. Lacking a lathe ,I used a 1.5 in. dia. dowel cut to 2 in. length. I drilled a hole into one end dropped the 0.5 in.ball into it and epoxied it in.On the other side I epoxied a flat washer. Now I put a short bolt into my press and run it up against the washer. Put 210 lbs of pressure onto the handle, hold it for ca. 20 sec. and you got it. The reason for using a 0.500 Ball ( bearing) is that they are available in most hardware stores and the other reason is when measuring soft lead you get an indentation of 0.190 in. which is easy to read. I have worked out the formula from 0.090 to 0.190 which corresponds from soft lead ( I use it to cast Rifled slugs) to Linotypy lead. If you like a copy I`ll be glad to email you one. That saves you a lot of hassle. Regards, Marlin | |||
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Marlin, I'd appreciate a copy. Leftoverdj@AOL.com It is a good citizen's duty to love the country and hate the gubmint. | |||
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Leftoverdj. You got it, tell me where to send it.Marlin | |||
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Leftoverdj@AOL.com It is a good citizen's duty to love the country and hate the gubmint. | |||
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I can't find the lee lead hardness tester on their web sight. Help Please Swede --------------------------------------------------------- NRA Life Member | |||
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Swede44 mag. You cannot find their hardness tester on the web. It is not advertised. I phoned them and received the user instruction sheet which explains it pretty well. Phone : 262-673-3075. If you need more info right away. post it. Hope this helps. Marlin | |||
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Marlin 55, the machinist handbook covers Brinell and the Rockwell scales which go beyond what you need for cast bullets. The most useful scales are Brinell and SAECO. What Brinell level are you after and what is the desired application? If you are trying to prevent leading, most casting companies move up from the Lyman #2 alloy (15) to a Brinell of 18, which is about the same as a 10 on the SAECO scale. Oregon Trail bullets are extremely hard with a Brinell around 26, which some reloaders find, too hard and are prone to break up in large game. Whether this is good or bad of course depends on how far they penetrated before they broke up. Another approach, that I like is to stick with a Brinell of 18, or 19 and moly coat to reduce leading. This is a popular concept for very high velocity revolver loaders of the .454 Casull.  "No one told you when to run; you missed the starting gun." | |||
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KLN 357 What I am after are Bullets that don`t lead up the barrel. First let me mention that I cast for the following calibers: 45/70 405 gr. no gas check, loaded to 1280 ft/sec. Next 429215 Gascheck 975 ft/sec Then 205 gr 308 Gas check ( Saeco 301) 1750 ft/sec. The problem is: I have lots of wheelweights accumulated over a period of 40 years. They are all in ingot form and stored in wooden ammo crates. They are all of a different hardness. I suspect due to age. I don`t want to fool around with antimony, This is the reason for a hardness tester. Any suggestins. Marlin | |||
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marlin55, Your loads should be fine for air-cooled WW. If you need a harder bullet, heat treated WW is as hard as it gets, but is only needed for higher velocities. A hard bullet is not necessarily bad at low velocites, though, providing the diameter is big enough. I shoot heat treated WW for 99% of my loads. It's cheap and it works about as well as anything. Heat treated WW is not particularly brittle and is not prone to break up, though any lead bullet will fail if it hits something hard enough, fast enough. You may see some variation in BHN for air-cooled WW, because air cools the bullet fast enough to heat treat the bullet slightly. The hardness may also vary over time. At your velocities, it shouldn't matter. Rumor has it that wheelweights used to be harder in the old days. Another rumor has it that big wheelweights for semis may be harder than ordinary car wheelweights. I haven't seen much difference in the wheelweights that I have encountered, except that tape-on weights are softer than clip-on. | |||
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popenmann beat me to, but as Martha Stewart would say; It's a good thing! Heat treating is the way to go if you want to avoid using antimony or another element for a harder alloy. Gunwriter, Layne Simpson had a very good system to create what you're after. The only problem I can see is that he was doing it in his wifes oven! I wish I could give the exact time to bake, but I believe the Temperature was around 300, but not over 350. When he pulled them from the oven they went into cold water. The faster the temperature drop when you quench, the higher the Brinell can be raised. I like 18-19 Brinell for most chores, but I do shoot Oregon Trails' 170 gr. .309 GC. The SAECO (REDDING) hardness tester may be the tool your looking for and Graf or Midway should have it, and it wii be equivelant to Brinell 18 or 19 when the SAECO reads 10. "No one told you when to run; you missed the starting gun." | |||
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Barrel and throat leading is not as much a function of hardness as you would believe. Of course, if you're trying drive a soft lead-tin alloy too fast it will lead. But the main cause of leading, particularly in revolvers, is an undersized bullet. It that case, an extremely hard bullet can cause more leading by not upsetting and sealing the base. What happens is the hot gas blows past the bullet, carrying small bit of molten lead with it. This is usually detected by a heavy leading in the forcing cone with the leading tapering off down the barrel. If it were caused by a too soft bullet, the leading could be expected to be fairly constant down the barrel. If the leading is caused by blow-by from an undersized bullet, the cure is a softer alloy not a harder one. A harder alloy can actually make the leading worse. Of course the best cure is a properly sized bullet. A lot of revolvers have cylinder throats oversized in relation to the bore. For instance I've gauged both of the S&W 44s I own and found that the cyl throats measure .432 . I'm currently using fairly soft wheelweight bullets sized in a .430 die. They end up measure .431 after sizing. I'm planning on trying a .431 die to see what difference it will make. Someone that didn't know the diameter of these cyl throats and simply used a .429 die would probably experience terrible leading unless a soft bullet was fired at moderate pressure and velocity. Revolver throats can be easily measured with a plug gauge. Dial calipers are not accurate enough. Measure barrel diameters and fixed breach guns is a little tougher. It is usually done by driving a soft lead slug into the barrel, then measuring the slug. Some believe that it's more important to match the bullet diameter to the chamber throat than to the bore diameter in a fixed breach gun. That would cure the problem of blow-by. I ignored all this for years shooting lead bullets as I thought it would be too much trouble. As I began to pay attention to proper bullet size and hardness for the load used, I found it was less work than unleading a barrel. You only have to measure a barrel or throat once. You have to unlead a barrel everytime you lead it up. Mark Pursell | |||
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I fully agree with M Pursell recommendation. You may improvise a Sizing Die by drilling a hole in a 3/8 inch thick steel plate to a convenient diameter (starting with barrel diameter and increasing up to 0,005 inches larger than the barrel. if I am not wrong). Here follows the method to gradually enlarge the hole. http://www.castpics.net/RandD/hone_a_die/hone_a_die.htm I got excellent results with a pistol barrel with worn out throat. For knowing the tendency among different diameters, I shooted 50 rounds with the same sizing diameter , brushed the barrel with a bronze brush on a clean paper and weighted lead particles with the powder scale Best regards BA Shooter | |||
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M Purcell I read your post with great interrest. I SLUGGED THE 44 BARREL AND HERE IS WHAT I FOUND: THE BULLET MIKED 0.420 AND 0.431 Not having a plug gauge I miked the Cylinder front and it shows 0.425.That seems odd.Inspite of changing from a Lyman 429421 w/o gas check to a 429215 with gaschecks which improved the accuracy very much , the leading is still in the forcing cone and about 2in. up into the barrel. Marlin | |||
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Marlin, your .425 cylinder throat doesn't sound right. Dial calipers don't measure small hole diameters very accurately, try slugging the cylinder throats. Just one or two should tell the tale. The bullets should be sized no smaller than the throat minus .001-.002. Your description of a leaded forcing cone and couple inches of barrel sounds like a bullet that is undersized to the throat. The undersize bullet is allowing powder gas to blow by depositing lead in the forcing cone. A gascheck wouldn't help the problem. Mark Pursell | |||
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Yes, I think you are right. 0.425 seems too small. I`ll wait til next week to cast a cople of soft lead bulleys.to slug the cylinder. Too hot right now. Marlin | |||
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Break in the weather. I casted some 0.429 and slugged both cylinders. The bullets fell through I would say both cylinders are at least 0.430 maybe 0.431. What to do now about sizing? Regards Marlin 55 | |||
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Marlin55, I forget which brand & model gun you have, but anyway, size 'em as large as practical. Maybe try shooting a few as-cast, without sizing, just to see what happens. Let us know if it makes a difference. If the bullets used to slug the cylinder are too small, just smack 'em with a hammer. I still get a kick out of your method of using a drill press and bathroom scale to measure hardness.  That's creative and practical. | |||
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Marlin55, I forgot to mention to use a plain jane crimp/seating die on the revolver loads. Don't use the Lee Factory Crimp die or any of the other newfangled crimp dies that resize the cartridge or that apply a taper crimp, because they may squeeze the lead bullet down to a smaller diameter. | |||
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Popenmann. Glad to hear from you. I am using a Ruger Blackhawk and a Ruger Redhawk 44`s.I usually size and lube in one operation with a Lyman 450.that puts my gaschecks on too.Using your suggestion I will use my Lee mould 255gr. no gascheck and then tumble them in Lee Alox, no sizing.I have tried Elmer Keith 240gr. 429421 with 8,5 gr. Unique but nothing to brag about. I find WW 231 and AA#2 the powder for handguns incl. my other handguns. Regards Marlin | |||
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Marlin, I don't know what you are sizing your bullets now. Lyman makes a .431 H&I die. That may be just right for you. I plan on trying one for my 44s. If your bullet is designed to use a gas check, leaving it off is probably not a good idea. It may not shoot worth spit and it introduces a new variable. When experimenting, only change one variable at a time so that you'll know what each one does. The Lyman 450 is designed to allow you to seat a gascheck without sizing or lubing. There is a little collar that you slip over the stop rod to limit how far the bullet enters the die. Mark Pursell | |||
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Mark Purcell. I have 3 moulds Lyman 429421 Lee 429255SWC both no gas checks and Lyman 429215 With Gascheck I have sized the 429215 to .4298 measured with a Starret Micrometer.I intend to use the 2 moulds without a gas check and no seizing, just tumble the bullets in Lee Alox.However they are coming from the mould at ,429.using pure lead. I tried that yesterday to have bullets to slyg the cylinder. Marlin | |||
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If you are getting .429" slugs with pure lead, using one of the "approved" alloy mixes will give you the right diameter. Rule of thumb is that the harder you cast a bullet, the bigger it gets. Now, having said that, I would recommend 3 parts ww to one part lino, if you can get your hands on any lino. That is what I use... Another recipe that works well for me is 19# of ww to 1 bar of 50/50 solder, available at any plumbing supply house. I found out long ago that the old Lyman 90-5-5 recipe was just a waste of solder, and cast bullets don't ever need over ~2% tin. | |||
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I don't think it's a rumor. I still have roughly 100 pounds of cleaned wheel weights I bought in 1973 while living in Nevada. They're what's left of a 500 pound batch I bought back then. Bullets cast from that metal run in the 12 BHN range one week after being cast. Bullets from current wheel weight metal run 8-9 BHN one week after being cast. Paul B. | |||
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Doubless and Paul B. Thanks for the input.As soon as it cools I will be casting some 44`s and308`s. I have a 30+ year supply of lead and I think I`ll melt down 20 lbs at one time and determine the BHT. I have lots of tin and ww. I think the older ww are harder.Some time ago I had access to some Linotype. The stuff was good. Then I found out that the Newspaper printers re-melted that stuff and after 10 or so remelts you could strike it with a hammer and the Ringing sound was gone.You could use it for a boat anker. I think that the stick-on ww have cadmium in it which will ruin your melt. Regards Marlin | |||
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